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<p><font face="Verdana">No offence Florimond, I didn't feel
personally addressed, although I said I could and others might
felt the same.<br>
In regard to your rules of thumb I'de like to refer back to
Frederik Ramms general comment on this talk group and a growing
aversion from the community in regard to the endless discussions
and the relevance of our tagging guidelines and wiki content.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Although I just recently became a member of
this group, I am on OSM since 2015 and soon reaching 4.000.000
non contested edits.<br>
There is a growing aversion from the community regarding:<br>
- the culture of just launching disapproval of proposals,
ongoing discussions without constructive alternatives to the
writers how it could be improved;<br>
- the tendency that is growing, for many members in this group,
to participate in every discussion just for the sake they like
discussions, it's their hobby;<br>
- the sometimes near abusive language or discrimination due to
the fact that some members, because they are long time active
members in this group, consider their personal views or rules of
thumb "the standard". In my view there is just one standard:
everyone is free to map and tag the way they see fit. Everyone
should be heard and respected, regardless of being a specialist,
a cartographer, a scientist, of higher eduction or no education.
There are no assigned gatekeepers, neither should anyone feel
himself to take up this role because he is here long time, is a
large contributor etc..., we all are gatekeepers and go for the
common good, the common ground and the compromise which you will
have to try to achieve, every tagging guideline is a
compromise. It will never be perfect, it will never be
complete, but if you like to contribute and improve OSM, to
create guidance in the growing "mess" as some call it, the wiki
and the tagging, to assure the future nd relevance of OSM, a
change in culture, we are in need to create a more positive,
constructive and consensus culture here. There is no lack on
creativity if I may say so.<br>
I think the proposal process is very good and mature, and it
might be even in some cases, like giving guidance that you
should consider everyone's opposition, a bit to far. To my
opinion, very constructive comments were given, by me and
others. There was no undermining of the proposal process.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Please, from a new member in this group, as
a member of the under-represented African community, but born,
raised and for 30 years a team leader and manager in European
and International projects, having read and researched many
comments, from OSM pioneers, from long time members, from the
African community and many friends I made over the years all
over the world, the culture how we discuss, how we come to a
consensus, needs to change, this group is nearing a point where
it becomes completely irrelevant to the majority of the
community, including all the work it has produced over the
years, the whole wiki, and that would be a very bad evolution,
creating an even bigger "mess". For the pioneers who worked
hard to create OSM for what it is now, for this group and for
the OSM community as a whole, we need a change in RFC and
proposal culture, not in the policies or guidelines.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Of course I can tag as I like, but it
doesn't mean because I can I should. I came here to become a
part of a community, a worldwide community where everyone is
respected. I came here not to tag or map as I want, but to
contribute for the greater good, for others who see my work -
OUR work - as useful, an example how a democracy and mutual
respect can really produce data and is able to self-governance,
to produce hopefully everlasting impact and data, for the whole
world.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">That said, I didn't feel personally offended
Florimond.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Bert Araali<br>
</font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/02/2021 20:43, Florimond Berthoux
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAELphJA3eaSxKuYH=Gbdfg1yWny99WN1+ACwJUSg8gTkHw4y=w@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Hi Bert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't know why you take it personally, I just state a
rule of thumb to avoid :</div>
<div>- losing others time and energy</div>
<div>- behaving as gatekeeper<br>
</div>
<div>- undermine proposal process.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyhow : any tag you like :)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le ven. 19 févr. 2021
à 19:45, Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <<a
href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Verdana">Did I say I am not interested ? I
clearly am, that's why I feel to participate in a
constructive and helpful way . I said I was not a
specialist, same as you state you are not a specialist
! Stop making remarks to exclude people from
discussions or oppose anyone's right to vote. It might
insult them, don't use it as a tool to support
someone's opinion, against or in favour of a proposal
or your personal opinion.<br>
The tag documentation is not there to be a dictionary,
true, it is there to explain when and how to use them.
So it needs clarification why you use a particular
English, and in this case adopted from French word, to
identify a mapping feature, so non-native English
users or in this case maybe non-native French speakers
can understand it and can translate it properly. The
reason it was adopted from French means there was no
suitable equivalent English term. So the French
speaking community members should support and
encourage it's use not by default think it's clear to
me, it's my language, so it doesn't need a clear
justification why I consider it should be used here.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Cordialement,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Bert Araali</font><br>
</p>
<div>On 19/02/2021 20:55, Florimond Berthoux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not a specialist at all, though I wonder if a
couloir is may be more a way than a ’natural’.<br>
</div>
<div>I mean we call that a couloir (corridor) because
people use it as a way to climb the mountain.</div>
<div>Like other kind of corridor, a boat corridor,
corridor between two territories etc, a narrow path.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS: I agree, people not interested in using the
proposed tag should abstain from voting.</div>
<div>And OSM Tag documentation is not here to define
words.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le jeu. 18 févr.
2021 à 20:41, pierrick pratter via Tagging <<a
href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><code>Voting has started for Couloir 2. </code><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/couloir_2"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/couloir_2</a><code></code></div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Florimond Berthoux</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
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<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">Florimond Berthoux</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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