<div dir="ltr"><div>Thank you for the feedback so far. To keep down traffic on this list I'm going to reply to each of you individually with follow up questions. I want to gather as much information as I can and incorporate it into a revised draft. If you feel your reply is worth everyone's time, of course feel free to send to the whole list. For anyone just jumping into the thread, here is the first draft of the proposed rewrite I am gathering feedback on.<br></div><div><br><div>Proposed rewrite: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ezekielf/Tag:highway%3Dtrack" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ezekielf/Tag:highway%3Dtrack</a></div><div>Current wiki page: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack</a></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:26 PM Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <<a href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div>On 09/03/2021 03:43, Kevin Kenny wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 6:10
PM Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <<a href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com" target="_blank">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">Why do we need
unclassified ? Look at it from the point of view from
an ant, walking on the tree. The ant only knows that
it walks on a road, it can't see that far to see if
that road is a minor branch or a major branch, or even
a shallow trunk. It does however know that it is
something that belongs to one of these, because sap
runs through it. It's like a mapper in the field
without a satellite imagery. The ant can only find out
what the road exactly is, by walking all the way from
one end to the other, or by asking other ants who
already acquired that knowledge. In case they are not
there, it should call it unclassified, to indicate it
needs more information to assign a final judgement.</span></p>
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<div>That's not how it's used in OSM. What you described is
tagged in OSM as `highway=road`. `highway=unclassified`,
misleadingly, is a formal read classification in the UK -
the road is classified as an 'unclassified road'. What
'unclassified' means is that the road has a lower importance
than 'tertiary', but is not 'residential', either because it
is more important than the residential roads or because it
serves another purpose such as accessing an industrial
district. (If we were to start from a non-UK-centric
perspective, we'd have probably chosen a tag like
'quaternary' to describe this in a more neutral fashion.) <br>
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Maybe that's the most common way how it is interpreted in the West,
having it's roots in the UK. In Africa, it's not. We generally have
very few or no highway=road. It also isn't considered a valid
classification in Highway Tag Africa guidelines. It also doesn't
fit in the more academic models where socio-economic classification
is mostly done using the major classes strategic (trunk or primary)
/ collector / feeder / local / service.<br>
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<div>A service road, at least as they are tagged around here,
can serve more than one dwelling. `highway=service` is
routine for driveways in apartment complexes, and for shared
driveways that serve multiple rural establishments but are
not public highways.</div>
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True, also here. My explanation with the tree model isn't perfect. I
mailed it as a simplified explanation of the previous mail (should
have chnaged the title slightly). Please take a look at it or this
is the copy:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p><font face="Verdana">Every road is a track, every modification
of a natural environment by living creatures to move from one
place to another is a track.<br>
So start your mental journey with highway=track.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Now you identified a track. First
question: Can I add a social or economic importance to it (for
humans but might as well work for animals).<br>
If yes, find a suitable socio-economic tag, you end up with
highway=trunk(= all strategic tracks), primary(strategic bt
not crossing international borders), secondary (=collector),
tertiary(=feeder), residential (=local, any local importance,
can be industrial) ,service or unclassified if you do mean it
has a socio-economic importance but you couldn't determine
which specifically or a single key, then highway=unclassified
(room for considering combining multiple values).<br>
You can't or don't want to add a socio-economic importance,
you remain with highway=track.</font></p>
<p>Can I use a tag to specify if it is modified by humans to
improve the throughput of the road. (by access restrictions,
physical modifications like solting it from crossing roads,
making it wider or narrower). If yes, use highway=motorway,
path. Possible additional tags like express can be used.<br>
Ask yourself the same question if you used one of the
socio-economic keys, so any highway from the above
socio-economic classes can be a motorway or a path. (also room
for improvement, our current tagging guidelines don't allow
multiple values in the highway key), but as far as I am
concerned might be highway=primary;motorway or might as well be
highway=primary;path).<br>
Possible additional values: alley etc...<br>
No clear answer ? You still are with highway=track.</p>
<p>You remain with highway=track.<br>
</p>
<p>Missing in OSM: highway top level values to indicate how it is
managed, however these should not be on the top level, because
the tracks from the above can be managed by humans, taking in
consideration values for names given worldwide.<br>
So we need a subkey for the highway tagging to describe it's
management, often reflected in specific names.<br>
This could be highway:name_managed=highway, interstate, freeway,
motorway, trunk, bypass, ringway... with additional tags for the
operator=* and or translation so it can be understood worldwide:
f.i. highway:name_managed:nl= snelweg, express weg, ringweg ...
or highway:name_managed:de= Autobahn or highway:name_managed:fr=
route_nationale, autoroute ... or highway:name_managed:hi=<span lang="hi">हाईवे... or highway:name_managed:zh-hant= </span><span lang="zh-TW">高速公路... or highway:name_managed:ru=</span><span lang="ru">автомагистраль... ) </span>etc...? Add an
admin_level.</p>
<p>Finally, ask yourself if you would like to add tagging to
describe physical restrictions or improvements that support one
of the above classifications, like paved/unpaved or specific
surface, smoothness, seasonal or weather condition aspects ?<br>
But it remains a highway=track or one of the highway=* tags
above. This doesn't change the top-level highway key.<br>
</p>
In the end it remains a track, like all roads do, like all
highway=* do. You remain with highway=track through the
elimination process described above.<br>
Works everywhere, globally, in every language, simple and shows
how the mess is actually not a mess if we all think in the same
way.... which we do, we are all living beings.</blockquote>
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<p><span style="font-family:Verdana">Remains, what are
tracks: all roads that have no specific socio-economic
purpose and where no intervention has taken place to
separate traffic that moves at significant different
speeds.</span></p>
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<div>Most tracks have very specific economic purposes. They
serve forestry, agriculture, possibly access to wilderness
trailheads, possibly combating wildfires, possibly
prospecting, Or they may be ways that were originally
planned for something else, have outlived their purpose, and
fallen into disrepair (but remain passable to wheeled
vehicles). NB: The only non controversial interpretations
in this paragraph are agriculture and forestry. Those who
interpret 'the rules' most rigidly reject the 'track'
classification if the road serves any other purpose (even if
the primary purpose is agriculture or forestry), or the
mapper has been unable to discern the purpose. The presence
of a hiking trailhead, a small gravel pit, or a cabin has
been held to be sufficient to make the way something other
than a track. <br>
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Also here i agree, same answer as above. Better could be:<span style="font-family:Verdana"> "Remains, what are tracks: all roads
that have no specific socio-economic classification (=trunk /
Primary / secondary / tertiary...) and where no intervention has
taken place to separate traffic that moves at significant
different speeds.</span>
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<div>I personally do not construe 'track' as narrowly, but I
also don't believe that I should have to use 'highway=road'
for a road that I personally have traveled _part_ of, and
observed the characteristics, merely because I don't have
complete information - and perhaps have no way to obtain
complete information about what's at the other end. If it
has 'access', 'surface', 'smoothness' and 'tracktype'
catalogued, the differences to rendering or routing among
'track', 'service' and 'unclassified' will be trivial; for
the roads that consist of two ruts disappearing out of sight
into the forest beyond where I stopped walking, 'track' is
as good a classification as any. </div>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin</div>
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