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    <p><font face="Verdana">Forgive me I am trying to answer all the
        questions here. Very few of the few of us here are going to read
        all the chit chat and we are using a lot of bandwidth. So I am
        going to try to answer multiple views and questions in one mail.</font></p>
    <p><font face="Verdana">@zelonewolf:<br>
      </font></p>
    <div>
      <blockquote type="cite">As I understand it, a "virtual" path is
        one that describes actual usage (where people walk, and should
        therefore be routed on) but does not manifest in any physical
        way.  Thus, a renderer could choose to not render these virtual
        connections (as they do not physically appear in the world)
        while routers can still use the data of "people walk across this
        place where there is no path". <br>
      </blockquote>
      But they do manifest in a physical way, all the examples for
      highways do. I don't want to ask myself what was here first, the
      connecting paths and later someone made a paved square, or parking
      or paved junction on top of them, the paths are still there, under
      the square, they are not virtual. I still walk on the path on the
      square on top of it. A path across undeveloped land gets
      overgrown, but the path is still there, it's not virtual at all. I
      can't imagine any place, a square that has no highway=* to it,
      maybe some extreme cases of helipads where no one wants to get in
      or out the helicopter :).
      <blockquote type="cite"> Without some kind of tagging like virtual
        (or whatever it gets called), there is no way for renderers (who
        wish to differentiate such things) to discern the habitual paths
        of humans across the ground from physically manifested paths.</blockquote>
      I explained this before.  Adding a virtual tag as a reference to
      render, to mimic imagery or unclutter tiles, will have the
      opposite effect, because in thousands of places the junctions,
      squares etc... are not mapped as areas, leading to lots of voids
      in the rendering.  The renderer should make that decision based on
      the presence of a landuse or landcover polygon, or on a surface
      tag in the highway=*. If there is no surface=* tag on a highway or
      no other polygon with surface designation, that's as virtual as it
      can get. No added value in a "virtual" tag.</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>@lectrician1:</div>
    <div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There
          are nonexistent coastlines at river mouths, for example: <a
            href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/149550311"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/149550311</a></blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>This is an intersection of 2 ways within each-other's
          realistic areas. This will also be covered in my revised
          highway link proposal.</div>
      </blockquote>
      Cover what ? That it's a logic line to close a polygon, a common
      practice in cartography and OSM? What does a "virtual" tag add
      here besides asking a mapper to add an additional tag. Is a
      renderer going to change it's rendering because you call it a
      virtual way ? A router to change that it knows you are on the
      river or on the lake when you cross the line, virtual or not is
      not going to change anything there ?<br>
      The only purpose in OSM where I could see an advantage of applying
      some kind of distinction is with boundaries.  To distinct
      physically present boundaries from those retrieved from official
      and reliable sources but not clearly verifiable in the field.<br>
      Boundaries for EEZ and territorial waters based on calculations. <br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>But all other cases, no added value still.</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>@ael:</div>
    <div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I am coming around to path=link which seems somewhat clearer,
although others uses of link are for more concrete ways.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </div>
    <div>If you abstract, every highway, every waterway is a link, a
      connection between two points.  The whole path is a link.</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Greetings,</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Bert Araali<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 23/03/2021 17:30, Peter Elderson
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKf=P+uUZqxzkFS7n0qaduK6_TOuEyH6-9qucPnKPRM1ABPYig@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Can't wait!
        <div><br clear="all">
          <div>
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
              data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Vr gr Peter Elderson</div>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op di 23 mrt. 2021 om 14:59
          schreef Seth Deegan <<a href="mailto:jayandseth@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">jayandseth@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
              0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
              rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">There are nonexistent
              coastlines at river mouths, for example: <a
                href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/149550311"
                rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/149550311</a></blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>This is an intersection of 2 ways within each-other's
              realistic areas. This will also be covered in my revised
              highway link proposal.</div>
            <div>
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <a
                    href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lectrician1</a></div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at
              8:31 AM Seth Deegan <<a
                href="mailto:jayandseth@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">jayandseth@gmail.com</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
              0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
              rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir="ltr">Well Bert, I'll try to convince you why we
                really need them with my proposal.<br clear="all">
                <div>
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <a
                        href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Lectrician1"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lectrician1</a></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 23, 2021
                  at 8:19 AM Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <<a
                    href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                  0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                  rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div>
                    <p><br>
                    </p>
                    <div>On 23/03/2021 15:11, Mateusz Konieczny via
                      Tagging wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Mar 23, 2021, 12:57 by <a
                          href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pelderson@gmail.com</a>:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote style="border-left:1px solid
                        rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div>I tag lots of recreational routes as
                            route relations. A route is a continuous
                            chain of connected ways. In lots of places I
                            need a linking way to keep the
                            chain continuous, especially in hiking
                            routes, because  there is no actual official
                            link or path. <br>
                          </div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>E.g. Often a cycleway is present for a
                            stretch along a road. Then it just stops.
                            Pedestrians and cyclists will continue on
                            the side of the road. If the path is mapped,
                            it will connect, at the end, to the
                            centerline of the road with a virtual path,
                            to provide a continuous chain for
                            routing (including "manual routing" in route
                            relations). This gets more complicated when
                            footways and cycleways are both mapped
                            separately, which is an increasing trend. <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                    The route or way doesn't stop, the pavement stops,
                    the separation stops. The route just continues.  Its
                    perfectly OK to map those with our current tagging
                    scheme. Why would you want to use link here ? A link
                    is very distinguishable in it's function, use and
                    most of the time appearance.  It's not a "soft"
                    link. <br>
                    As you say, if there is no clear separate "link"
                    don't use link. But what does "virtual" add here ?
                    Just use surface tagging if you feel the need to
                    indicate the different surface of those small links.
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <blockquote style="border-left:1px solid
                        rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>You could say it's tagging for the router<br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div>I would say that "there is connection between
                        X and Y" is actually mapping reality.<br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>And it is often needed if people map
                        footways/cycleways as separate geometries<br>
                      </div>
                      <div>(and it is one of main drawbacks of doing it
                        this way...)<br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote style="border-left:1px solid
                        rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div>, but it's standing practice to map for
                            continuity. As soon as routers and the
                            standard OSM track export can be reasonably
                            expected to deal with non-continuous routes
                            and route relations, i.e. finding a solution
                            for missing links which adequately deals
                            with trajectory, access and other
                            characteristics of the terrain where a
                            connection is needed, I am all for mapping
                            just what there is.<br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div>Note that is extremely unlikely - there are
                        often small gaps where there is an actual
                        barrier and<br>
                      </div>
                      <div>no passage! Distinguishing this two is not
                        easy and trying to guess "there is connection
                        here"<br>
                      </div>
                      <div>would result in massive number of false
                        positives.<br>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <fieldset></fieldset>
                      <pre>_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  _______________________________________________<br>
                  Tagging mailing list<br>
                  <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
                  <a
                    href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          Tagging mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
            moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
          <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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