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<p><font face="Verdana">I understood. What this proposal lacks is
however what do we regard as verifiable.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">You say by:</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">- local knowledge OR<br>
- school collection OR<br>
- field name OR<br>
- signage</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">To me this should be:<br>
- signage AND<br>
- local knowledge OR school collection OR field name<br>
as only the signage is accessible and verifiable by every mapper
on the ground.<br>
<br>
They might be in use, still today. However one should consider
how consistently it is used for that purpose. As comparison to
similar examples:<br>
- in many countries mass takes place outside the church, due to
the pandemic or even other constraints (like the crowd is too
big for the church, no church present in the vicinity ...). F.i.
on a grass field, an open space in the forest, a playground at a
school etc... , are we going to tag all of these as "mass
grounds"", they might even have a (temporary) signage.<br>
- in some churches concerts are organised. They might be
advertisement about them, mentioned in periodic magazines,
newspapers, literaure etc... . Are we going to tag these
churches as concert halls ?<br>
- even an "historical" field name might exist, referring to it's
historical use, but the current use no longer reflects that
usage, so we shouldn't map and tag it as current use. Their are
many examples of these features all over the world, historical
names but currently used differently, thus mapped according to
current use.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">What I am trying to say Anne is that the
proposal how it is written know, invites for lots of mapping of
non verifiable places. It needs to be improved.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Bert Araali<br>
</font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/04/2021 18:38, Anne-Karoline
Distel wrote:<br>
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<p>I wasn't suggesting tagging any old rock in a field as a mass
rock, only the ones where local knowledge, reference in the
school collection (linked on the proposal page), the field name
or even signage proves their former or present use as such.</p>
<p>And they are used still, especially now that worship in
churches is not allowed due to COVID restrictions: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://twitter.com/Sachinettiyil/status/1378976540331941888?s=20">Mass
rock worship on Achill Island</a> on Easter Sunday.<br>
</p>
<p>Anne<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/04/2021 16:26, Bert -Araali-
Van Opstal wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:b1f3de49-11a3-7247-ac6b-707858f252e7@gmail.com">
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<p><font face="Verdana">I am completely against mapping
something that is not verifiable or historical (disputed or
not as being historic).</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">With verifiable I mean with local
knowledge and some sign of ground truth.<br>
The presence of the rock itself does not signify that it was
used for this purpose. The (historic) mass aspect is a use
case. So if there is no inscriptions or some kind of
permanent marking that it was used for this purpose in the
past I would not map it in the regular OSM, it belongs in <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.openhistoricalmap.org">https://www.openhistoricalmap.org</a>.<br>
If we would start mapping these use cases we should ask
ourselves where this is going to take us ? What more use
cases are we going to map which solely exist in the minds or
literature. It doesn't make much sense in mapping the real
world, only clutter the map.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">In case their is some physical trace of
usage of the rock for this purpose, I would support it and
it would be justified. However minor or vague it is, but it
needs to be a combination of both verifiable as in local
knowledge as some evidence of the use (not the physical
natural feature as the existence of the rock).</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Bert Araali<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Should be mapped on historic.osm .</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/04/2021 18:21, Anne-Karoline
Distel wrote:<br>
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<p>Just to be clear - the rock itself is not sacred, it was
just safer to celebrate mass in the open air with guards
posted around rather than meeting in a barn or church ruin,
because you could just flee across the fields or into the
woods in case British soldiers were approaching to avoid
being killed.</p>
<p>And I haven't found out whether there might still be annual
mass being said in some locations, especially when there is
a holy well nearby.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/04/2021 13:53, Paul Allen
wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CAPy1dOJcTFdW0MRSTp20WHi33Ppmft+rSGn0Uu9z5AMRn2Y9vQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 at 13:30, Mateusz
Konieczny via Tagging <<a
href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>to clarify:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am 100% fine with tagging existing and
visible remains/ruins<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So you won't have a problem with tagging a mass
rock. Which tags get</div>
<div>used are open to discussion, but even you have to
agree that if the</div>
<div>rock is still there, it can be mapped.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not accepting mapping things of completely
and utterly<br>
</div>
<div>gone, without any trace whatsoever - and
without danger of<br>
</div>
<div>accidental remapping.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The rocks are still there. And can be mapped as
natural=rock</div>
<div>(or bare_rock or whatever). Plus some other tags.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Actually, a rock doesn't have to have been used for
masses to be</div>
<div>sacred. And it may still be in use. And it's
mappable.<br>
</div>
<div><a
href="http://stdogmaels.org/the-blessing-stone-and-landing-stage/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://stdogmaels.org/the-blessing-stone-and-landing-stage/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we come up with a sensible set of tags for holy
rocks, I'll</div>
<div>map it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- <br>
</div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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