<div dir="ltr">I can't see that altering the wiki would help much. Gravel comes in many sizes and mixes, so fine gravel is still gravel. <div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Peter Elderson</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op vr 16 apr. 2021 om 08:46 schreef Volker Schmidt <<a href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com">voschix@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I acknowledge there is a problem. I started out putting "gravel" on many maintained unpaved roads, only to look up the wiki some years later. I know use "fine_gravel" (taginfo 170k uses), which broadly corrisponds to the "gravel" of "gravel bikes". <div dir="auto">So, yes, most of my "gravel" roads are really "fine_gravel", but I have no idea how widespread it is, and also how much it depends of the mapper's mother tongue.</div><div dir="auto">I would not redefine the value "gravel", rather put a warning on the page, pointing out that we have this wide spread confusion, and invite mappers to consider "fine_gravel".</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il Gio 15 Apr 2021, 10:00 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div>For long time this tag was described at Key:surface page as <br></div><div>"Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as ballast on railways. Usually loosely arranged.<br></div><div>Typical size for road and surface construction range between 4 and 8 cm".<br></div><div><br></div><div>( <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a> )<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>But it turns out that surface=gravel is primarily used for roads where far smaller <br></div><div>pieces of rocks are used.<br></div><div><br></div><div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div><br></div><div>It is result of <br></div><div>- "gravel roads" term is often used in many countries for something where far smaller pieces<br></div><div> of rock are used, some of such roads would qualify for surface=compacted.<br></div><div> See <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg</a><br></div><div>- "gravel" and equivalent terms in other languages is often used by people to refer to pieces<br></div><div> of rock far smaller than 4cm<br></div><div>- there was not good tag for roads with surface of small loose gravel <br></div><div> (surface=fine_gravel at <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a> has<br></div><div> "A multilayer pavement with a stone or gravel basis and a topmost surface of firm, granular grit,<br></div><div> basalt or quartz," what anyway excluded cases of some gravel thrown on earth/mud/drt )<br></div><div>- surfaces matching old Wiki definitions are existing but really rare <br></div><div> <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div><br></div><div>How one may know that Wiki definition mismatches actual use?<br></div><div><br></div><div>assumption:<br></div><div>Surfacing roads/paths/etc with track ballast-sized pieces of gravel is extremely rare<br></div><div>(though it happens)<br></div><div><br></div><div>but in actual use surface=gravel is extremely common, far more common that<br></div><div>old Wiki definition.<br></div><div><br></div><div>So actual use clearly mismatches wiki definition.<br></div><div>In addition, many people using surface=gravel were unaware of this definition and unaware<br></div><div>that such surfaces described in Wiki actually exist!<br></div><div><br></div><div>See <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div><br></div><div>So:<br></div><div><br></div><div>It turns out that surface=gravel is for anything from "basically compacted" to<br></div><div>"basically track ballast".<br></div><div><br></div><div>I recommend checking <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a> in your language<br></div><div>and updating definition to match actual tag use.<br></div><div><br></div><div>It would be nice to find some good tagging for surfaces like<br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg" rel="noopener noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>surface=track_ballast? surface=huge_gravel? surface=ballast?<br></div><div><br></div><div>It would be also nice to find some more specific values for <br></div><div>cases of small gravel thrown on mud/dirt/grass - as surface=gravel<br></div><div>turns out to be very unspecific ability to tag this in detail would be great<br></div><div>(useful especially for cyclists)<br></div><div><br></div><div>surface=small_gravel? Something else?<br></div><div><br></div><div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div><br></div><div>PS AAAARAGAGAHHA. Tag used over 1.5 million times had actual use and OSM Wiki<br></div><div>definition completely and utterly mismatched.<br></div><div><br></div><div>And we need new tags and resurvey of 1 500 000 elements to have useful information about surface.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now surface=gravel may be both <br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br></div><div>and<br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg</a><br></div><div>that for many purposes are worth distinguishing.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Arghhh.<br></div> </div>
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