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The ground/dirt/earth distinctions are redundant & confusing.
All the choices for surface seem like too many choices. A typical
backroad or trail around here varies quite a bit along the way, it
could be natural dirt & rock, it could be very rocky, there may
be a little gravel put down a while ago. Oftentimes unpaved is the
best tag (along with smoothness).<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/17/21 12:48 PM, Mateusz Konieczny
via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:MYW9RhW--3-2@tutanota.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>Yes, I changed it recently on Wiki to document actual use.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See <a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&diff=2123632&oldid=2121665"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:surface&diff=2123632&oldid=2121665</a><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>and<br>
</div>
<div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:surface%3Dgravel&action=history"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:surface%3Dgravel&action=history</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>More improvements likely would be useful,<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>it seems to me that dirt and earth descriptions at <br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:surface"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Map_Features:surface</a><br>
</div>
<div>-- that is displayed at <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a>
<br>
</div>
<div>are also mismatching actual use).<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Apr 17, 2021, 19:51 by <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bradhaack@fastmail.com">bradhaack@fastmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid
#93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div>I'm also one of those who has tagged many gravel roads as
gravel. <br>
</div>
<div> The description on the wiki there now seems good to me:<br>
</div>
<div> "This tag has very large meaning range. Used for cases
ranging from huge gravel pieces like track ballast used as
surface, through small pieces of gravel to compacted surface."<br>
</div>
<div> I didn't see that it was changed recently?<br>
</div>
<div> It sounds like the tag is used consistently with the way
most people think of a gravel road. It sounds like this is
true not just in my area, but worldwide? <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div class="">On 4/16/21 1:44 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>The problem is that basically all surface=gravel
mismatched supposed definition.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So pretending that surface=gravel is anything else except
"any kind of gravel, small<br>
</div>
<div>or large" would be pointless.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would rather invent new values less likely to be
misinterpreted<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Something like<br>
</div>
<div>surface=track_ballast (?) / surface=huge_gravel (?) /
surface=ballast / surface=rubble (???)<br>
</div>
<div>for <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And surface=small_gravel or something else for <br>
</div>
<div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravel_road,_car_in_viewfield_for_scale.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravel_road,_car_in_viewfield_for_scale.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And rersurvey, with retagging to more precise values
(surface=gravel is still useful, <br>
</div>
<div>as surface=unpaved may be also for example surface=sand)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Apr 16, 2021, 08:41 by <a target="_blank" rel="noopener
noreferrer" class="" href="mailto:voschix@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">voschix@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px
solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div dir="auto">
<div>I acknowledge there is a problem. I started out
putting "gravel" on many maintained unpaved roads, only
to look up the wiki some years later. I know use
"fine_gravel" (taginfo 170k uses), which broadly
corrisponds to the "gravel" of "gravel bikes". <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, yes, most of my "gravel" roads are
really "fine_gravel", but I have no idea how widespread
it is, and also how much it depends of the mapper's
mother tongue.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I would not redefine the value "gravel",
rather put a warning on the page, pointing out that we
have this wide spread confusion, and invite mappers to
consider "fine_gravel".<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" dir="ltr">Il Gio 15 Apr 2021, 10:00 Mateusz
Konieczny via Tagging <<a
href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" rel="noopener
noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex" class="">
<div>
<div>For long time this tag was described at
Key:surface page as <br>
</div>
<div>"Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as
ballast on railways. Usually loosely arranged.<br>
</div>
<div>Typical size for road and surface construction
range between 4 and 8 cm".<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>( <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a>
)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But it turns out that surface=gravel is primarily
used for roads where far smaller <br>
</div>
<div>pieces of rocks are used.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is result of <br>
</div>
<div>- "gravel roads" term is often used in many
countries for something where far smaller pieces<br>
</div>
<div> of rock are used, some of such roads would
qualify for surface=compacted.<br>
</div>
<div> See <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div>- "gravel" and equivalent terms in other
languages is often used by people to refer to pieces<br>
</div>
<div> of rock far smaller than 4cm<br>
</div>
<div>- there was not good tag for roads with surface
of small loose gravel <br>
</div>
<div> (surface=fine_gravel at <a rel="noopener
noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a>
has<br>
</div>
<div> "A multilayer pavement with a stone or gravel
basis and a topmost surface of firm, granular grit,<br>
</div>
<div> basalt or quartz," what anyway excluded cases
of some gravel thrown on earth/mud/drt )<br>
</div>
<div>- surfaces matching old Wiki definitions are
existing but really rare <br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How one may know that Wiki definition mismatches
actual use?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>assumption:<br>
</div>
<div>Surfacing roads/paths/etc with track
ballast-sized pieces of gravel is extremely rare<br>
</div>
<div>(though it happens)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>but in actual use surface=gravel is extremely
common, far more common that<br>
</div>
<div>old Wiki definition.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So actual use clearly mismatches wiki definition.<br>
</div>
<div>In addition, many people using surface=gravel
were unaware of this definition and unaware<br>
</div>
<div>that such surfaces described in Wiki actually
exist!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See <a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2021-March/014445.html</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It turns out that surface=gravel is for anything
from "basically compacted" to<br>
</div>
<div>"basically track ballast".<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I recommend checking <a rel="noopener
noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface</a>
in your language<br>
</div>
<div>and updating definition to match actual tag use.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be nice to find some good tagging for
surfaces like<br>
</div>
<div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>surface=track_ballast? surface=huge_gravel?
surface=ballast?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be also nice to find some more specific
values for <br>
</div>
<div>cases of small gravel thrown on mud/dirt/grass -
as surface=gravel<br>
</div>
<div>turns out to be very unspecific ability to tag
this in detail would be great<br>
</div>
<div>(useful especially for cyclists)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>surface=small_gravel? Something else?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS AAAARAGAGAHHA. Tag used over 1.5 million times
had actual use and OSM Wiki<br>
</div>
<div>definition completely and utterly mismatched.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And we need new tags and resurvey of 1 500 000
elements to have useful information about surface.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Right now surface=gravel may be both <br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:%C5%A0t%C4%9Brkov%C3%A1_cesta_u_Pl%C3%A1%C5%A1t%C3%ADku.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div>and<br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Gravelsign2.jpg</a><br>
</div>
<div>that for many purposes are worth distinguishing.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Arghhh.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div>Tagging mailing list<br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div><a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<pre class="" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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