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<p><font face="Verdana">We do have good tagging for this Paul. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">See the wiki pages for landuse=farmyard (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmyard">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmyard</a>)
and farmyard=* (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:farmyard">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:farmyard</a>).</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">So should be tagged as landuse=farmyard,
farmyard=feedlot or farmyard=stockyard. They mostly have
individual pens, so a mapper who wants to provide more detail
can use barrier=*.<br>
So sorry for the confusion before, I should read our wiki more
carefully, man_made=feedlot is wrong, should be
farmyard=feedlot.<br>
</font></p>
<p>Although barrier=pen is used 41 times, the barrier tag doesn't
seem suitable to me. Providing detail for the individual pens with
just barrier=* tags limits the possibilities as it should be used
for the type of fence for the pen.<br>
Most of these pens have specific other provisions or
characteristics, like soil type or bedding, drinking and feeding
provisions, significantly different from a fenced meadow or
pasture. So I would favourite a new tag for the pens like an area
with man_made=pen, suitable to add surface=* tags but also
species:en=cow etc... . This would allow to tag feedlots and
stockyards who have a mix of pens for different animals.</p>
<p>For António, the wiki says farmyard=poultry should be used for a
farmyard area used for raising poultry, usually chickens, for meat
or eggs, farmyard=fur ... . <br>
The issue I still see here is that it doesn't give a tag for the
buildings and it doesn't differentiate between the factory farm or
confinement concept and more animal friendly solutions like
poultry or egg producing farms where the animals have a large or
free roaming options outside the confinement. Neither does it
provide options for different animals like pigs, cows, goats,
sheep etc... <br>
In these cases, farmyard is used to describe the product or
produce, in other just the "type of operation" as in feedlot and
stockyard. I do know of farmyards that provide different life
animals like poultry and pigs, pigs and diary products etc...
however all based on the "factory" concept with permanent
confinement of the animals, intensive or highly concentrated.<br>
They also do have other provisions for manure storage and
processing, some produce their own silage but might combine with
human crops..., which would be tagged with multiple ; separated
values however you get a mix then with both produce and type of
operation in one key.<br>
</p>
<p>So for farmyard I would suggest to introduce some new values,
farmyard=permanent_confinement, farmyard=roaming_confinement,
farmyard=outdoor_roaming_confinement, farmyard=free_roaming
besides the existing values feedlot and stockyard which refer to
operations without animals confined in buildings.<br>
This still lacks some information to differ different operations
in the lifecycle of the animal, like breeding, feeding and
slaughter. Some facilities both breed and feed, others only breed,
others only feed, others might also slaughter like for the fur
producing factories and dispose the carcasses... .<br>
I would prefer to use a farmyard subkey for this, gives the most
flexibility and less different values in farmyard=*. So we could
use something like farmyard:operation=breed and/or feed and/or
slaughter (and others operations as they emerge), multiple
operations separated by ;.<br>
A farmyard value already in use but not listed in the wiki is
farmyard=dairy, which makes much sense and is a keeper.<br>
</p>
<p>I didn't include "livestock" in the value, because, more and more
the facilities that breed insects for protein and consumption,
either by humans or animals are emerging, in my English insects
are not livestock. They would be suitable to be described with the
same farmyard value if we avoid "livestock". As an alternative one
could introduce another farmyard=insect_production.</p>
<p>The final product or produce should really go in a separate key.
Like produce=eggs, produce=meat and I still prefer species:en=* to
refer to the specific animals, as the eggs might be different
coming from different breads, the meat might be different as
coming from different breeds. Beef can be form different breeds of
cattle, buffalo etc... different type of pigs, all tasting
different even have different texture and appearance.<br>
</p>
<p>This should deprecate farmyard=poultry (529) and farmyard=fur
(79). <br>
</p>
<p>Farmyard as such has 2792 use cases. This indicates that it never
received much popularity as in describing the operations taking
place on the landuse=farmyard (more the 1 000 000 uses) tag. Some
did however attempt to describe the farm factories with a large
number of different values all in very low usage numbers, some of
the most interesting "stables" and "livestock" in the farmyard
key.<br>
<br>
This brings me to Martin's argument, why don't we use the existing
tags for the different kind of animal housings like sty, stable,
chickencoop etc... . <br>
There are different issues with this tagging scheme:<br>
1. There is no simple query to extract all types of animal
housings form OSM. One needs to do a lot of research for all the
different values for buildings, many of them not documented. A
single building=animal_housing tag with animal_housing=sty /
stable / chickencoop etc.. would easily resolve this and allow for
easy re-tagging, no matter of it's industrial use or not. <br>
2. The existing scheme refers to slight differences in the
construction or appearance aimed at specific animal breeds. It
does imply that the building is used for a specific animal breed
however this might change and often be not the case. Small scale
or traditional farmers might keep chickens in the pigsty, cows in
the horse stable etc...<br>
3. As for most of these tags, they are advised to be used on the
traditional animal housings, either on a farmyard or even
residential or other landuse. Implicetely, the wiki says don't
use them on large industrial or factory like facilities as they
have different names.<br>
4. <font face="Verdana">In English semantics most animal
confinements have a specific word for it, depending on the type
of animal being kept in the confinement. This is justified
because different animals mostly require different provisions
and have different requirements to ventilation, size of the
stall, individual or group pens or , nesting, humidity,
temperature etc... which result in different indoor and/or
outdoor layout, utilities and provisions. This is applicable
both for the traditional animal confinements as the industrial
ones. <br>
In other languages this is often not the case. The different
types of animal confinement are distinguished by combining the
animal common species name with a general term for animal
confinement, like stable or pen. So a common mapper needs to be
having a broad English vocabulary, dictionary aside, or a
specialist farmer to know all these terms. Not accessible or
usable for a common mapper in a top-level key and in my opinion
has led to the large diversity in values currently in use,
leading to another OSM mess. Time to clean it up and make it
more usable and structured.<br>
5. Values and correct specialised terms for the more factory or
intensive like facilities are hardly or not used, like piggery,
battery (for eggs). You see other variants like stables, hall,
etc...<br>
6. The current situation is a mess and does not provide any
clear guidance or structure for tagging the factory farms. The
wiki pages exist since 2014, latest similar discussion (also
initiated by </font><font face="Verdana">António?) august 2020.
So even if we discussed it before, the issues have never been
addressed and the mess is just growing. Better to start
reasoning from zero, try to keep existing tagging as much as
possible but deprecate or discourage further extension of the
old mess.<br>
<br>
So I would stick to my previous arguments:
building=animal_housing. Combine it as you wish with
animal_housing=sty / stable / cowshed... and a new value or
values for the industrial ones. Some of the industrial ones have
specific terms like piggery, battery... .to describe it's type
of construction (mostly indoors) for a specific animal breed. A
sty is not a piggery though. A piggery is not necessarily an
industrial or factory like facility where the animal never sees
daylight or can't move around. So I would prefer a more general
term like animal_housing=strict_confinement OR
roaming_confinement OR daylight_confinement. Provide more
details about the animals housing conditions in additional
attribute key confinement=*.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Some examples:<br>
A mapper sees some buildings on a farmyard.<br>
Minimal tagging: landuse=farmyard, building=yes because he can't
determine if it's a barn, an animal housing, or even the house
of the farmer, the farmhouse.<br>
</font><br>
<font face="Verdana">The mapper is able to distinguish an
individual animal house:<br>
landuse=farmyard, building=animal_house.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The mapper can determine that the animal
housing is for chickens, kept in a small scale operation or
traditional.<br>
landuse=farmyard, building=chickencoop.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The mapper sees not only chickens in the
chicken coop but also some rabbits and even a small pig:<br>
landuse=farmyard, building=chickencoop,
species:en=chicken;rabbit;pig</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">All the above have no farmyard=* value,
meaning they are not large scale or industrial like operations.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The mapper sees a farmyard and can
distinguish an industrial like animal housing, no outdoor
facilities for the animals, without knowing what animals are
actually kept there:<br>
landuse:farmyard, farmyard=permanent_confinement,
building=animal_housing, confinement=strict_confinement.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The mapper sees a farmyard and can
distinguish an industrial like animal housing, no outdoor
facilities for the animals, the building is just a roof or
semi-open and he can see they keep pigs inside:<br>
landuse:farmyard, farmyard=permanent_confinement,
building=animal_housing, confinement=daylight_confinement,
species:en=domestic pig.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The mapper sees a farmyard </font><font
face="Verdana">and can distinguish an industrial like animal
housing, the animals can exit the building to small pens aside
the building but under the same roof. Like a cowshed. Due to
it's size and capacity he considers it as a large scale
intensive farm.<br>
</font><font face="Verdana">landuse:farmyard,
farmyard=roaming_confinement, building=animal_housing,
confinement=daylight_confinement, species:en=cow.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The mapper sees a farmyard </font><font
face="Verdana">and can distinguish an industrial like animal
housing, the animals can exit the building to small pens aside
the building but the pens don't have a roof. Like a cowshed with
outer pens. Due to it's size and capacity he considers it as a
large scale intensive farm.<br>
</font><font face="Verdana">landuse:farmyard, </font><font
face="Verdana">farmyard=outdoor_roaming_confinement,
building=animal_housing, confinement=</font><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">strict_confinement</font>, he maps the pens
separately and tags them man_made=pen, species:en=cow.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">I hope this helps, if there is some common
ground for this growing revamped tagging scheme, I would be very
pleased to craft it in a well defined proposal with the help of
some others (Antonio ?) and additions and changes to the
existing wiki pages.<br>
Of course any constructive comments, objections or additions are
welcome.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings, Bert Araali</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27/05/2021 21:16, Paul Allen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPy1dOL_tBPgpqhWjJ+u_E-hx=rNfRgvcM1rrE7eK1cziM7Yyw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>On Thu, 27 May 2021 at 17:35, Bert -Araali- Van Opstal <<a
href="mailto:bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">bert.araali.afritastic@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>The feedlots as referred to by Paul are just a
collection of the pens I mentioned before.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes and no. The differences between a collection of pens
and a feedlot are<br>
</div>
<div>the concentration of animals and the percentage of their
life spent in those</div>
<div>pens. Feedlots confine the animals for life so they
don't spend energy</div>
<div>wandering around to graze.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> A suggestion to map these could be man_made=pen on a
closed area and man_made=feedlot on the collection of
pens.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cattle markets have collections of pens in which animals
are briefly</div>
<div>kept (but probably not fed). The collection isn't a
feedlot.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- <br>
</div>
<div>Paul</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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