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<p><font face="Verdana">I agree with Georg, there is no need for a
new top level value in the historic key or a new
defensive_structure key, I even doubt of there is any "gap". the
proposal just creates more ambiguity with existing tagging
schemes.<br>
All the examples given are specific terms for objects that fit
under existing tags.<br>
We don't use new tags for specific walls in or constructions in
non historic buildings either like sheer wall, dividing wall
etc... . If there is really a need to describe or use specific
terms one can use description=* or even in some cases one of the
name keys.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">A good example f.i is the "Dodengang" in
Kaaskerke, Belgium
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/298214152">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/298214152</a>). These trenches
are tagged with footpath as cutting, perfectly plausible and
clear to me in combination with the name tags used. We do have
trench=*, to be combined with military=trench, so it would be
perfectly to use key=trench also on historical=memorial in this
case.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">The examples given in the proposal:<br>
- a bastion, crownwork, lunette, hornwork, rampart are just
walls (with ditches or trenches, embankments, gorge should only
be used on natural features), use historic=building or fort,
barrier=wall and description="historically called bastion" and
use the Wikidata and Wikipedia keys for more context. Use
relation:site eventually to relate them;<br>
- a caponier is a building and a trench </font><font
face="Verdana">historic=building, highway=footway, cutting=yes,
trench=* again with </font><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">description and use the Wikidata and Wikipedia
keys for more context;<br>
- a cavalier is just a building with more levels, enough tags
(hsitoric, building, ruins, building:levels etc...) to tag
those </font></font><font face="Verdana">again with </font><font
face="Verdana"><font face="Verdana">description and use the
Wikidata and Wikipedia keys for more context;<br>
- a glacis is an embankment ...<br>
etc... <br>
I can't find any gap.</font></font><br>
</p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Our wiki says explicitly about historical
key:</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">where the contributor prefers to define the
type of structure in additional tags, then it is possible to use
a generic value for the tag historic=*. See, for example:<br>
<br>
historic=archaeological_site<br>
historic=building<br>
historic=industrial<br>
historic=ruins</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">For the non-historic tagged structures we
also have heritage=* and for active use or not one can use
start_date and military:end_date and/or disused:military. Like
for military structures in countries where wars just ended
recently many bunkers still exist, not actively used but still
retained in case the troubles start again. So what does the use
of military=* tags only on "in active use" means ? Many of these
bunkers are used by the police f.i. during peacefull periods for
road blocks. That doesn't make them less military though.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Greetings,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Bert Araali<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">However this </font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/07/2021 13:54, Jeroen Hoek wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e19206b2-d932-2c4a-f721-54e748f9ed7a@jeroenhoek.nl">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
On 07-07-2021 12:33, Georg wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">But they might also
not qualify for historic=* as they are too young or of too little impact
on history.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Having defensive_structure as top-level tag does make it possible to
freely judge the need for military=* (active function) and historic=*
(or in some cases both!). The documentation would then need to be very
clear that defensive_structure=* is not a sub-tag of
historic=defensive_structure of course.
Also for bunkers recently no longer in use, disused:military=bunker
could be used in the absence of historic=*.
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