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<div>I think that root of problem is that you care specifically about midday summer shade,<br></div><div dir="auto">where summer_midday_shade=yes/no/limited may be viable.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And I have taken shade=* as tag intended to cover shade status across entire day<br></div><div dir="auto">and across year that is doomed to failure.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I would consider using summer_midday_shade=* if you tag that.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">My problem with shade=* is that across day and year status of <br></div><div dir="auto">shade at a given location changes dramatically<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">For example path with building/trees on its western side, giving heavy shade<br></div><div dir="auto">after noon but none in the morning and around noon.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Using shade=* for just summer midday shade will end in a miserable confusion.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Jul 7, 2021, 01:17 by bkil.hu+Aq@gmail.com:.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>- lamps put light in one direction, not<br></div><div>subject of rotation like most shades are<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You are again not focusing on the problem at hand and what the<br></div><div>customer (map user) wants and what an MVP means.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Proper MVP is either throwaway prototype or extendable.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">shade=* tagging is not fitting either one, and I prefer to stop<br></div><div dir="auto">it before it spreads like other clearly bad ideas such as<br></div><div dir="auto"><a target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:class:bicycle">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:class:bicycle</a><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>Mapping shade=* would require unusually<br></div><div>complex conditional syntax and ridiculous way splitting.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It would not make sense to add it to such a level of detail. This was<br></div><div>only considered as a time saver approximation.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">The problem is that in this case such approximation is not viable for <br></div><div dir="auto">most of cases as shade is changing far more than other properties<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>Also, if you are unsure, just don't map it. If it is clear that a<br></div><div>given path is never shade in the summer months around noon, why not<br></div><div>put something like shade=no on it?<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Because it may be shaded for entire morning or entire afternoon,<br></div><div dir="auto">as trees/buildings are on one side of it?<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">While other path is not shaded at all?<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div dir="auto"> If trees completely cover a given<br></div><div>stretch of footway and provide shade during summer months for many<br></div><div>hours around noon, why not put something like shade=yes on it?<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">That is viable in isolation but people will try to use shade=* for a bit trickier<br></div><div dir="auto">cases, this will fail and we will have one more broken tagging scheme.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>What if several possible paths/sidewalks/cycleways exist in the same<br></div><div>area and long stretches of them can be easily compared in some cases<br></div><div>and in case of one being clearly inferior, mark it with shade=limited?<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">And as soon as you will have different context competing <br></div><div dir="auto">(as this kind of info will be especially useful for cyclists/hikers, including<br></div><div dir="auto">long-distance cyclists/hikers) then it will start being problematic.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>In many company cultures (and many open and volunteer communities)<br></div><div>many code of conduct contain clauses to the effect of "trust your<br></div><div>peers that they can make educated decisions for themselves as the<br></div><div>mature adults they are". We are intelligent humans. Please trust<br></div><div>mappers that they can make usable decisions in fuzzy situations - this<br></div><div>is what differentiates us from robots. The map is made by humans for<br></div><div>humans.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Yes, but tagging schemes need to be properly designed.<br></div><div dir="auto">There are some that are miserable failures for various reasons,<br></div><div dir="auto">and shade=yes/no/limited is going to be a massive failure as<br></div><div dir="auto">large part of places is shaded partially and this matters.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Yes, there are places never ever shaded and basically always shaded,<br></div><div dir="auto">but for this data to be useful you need to handle what is between that.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>For what? In case of shade from buildings<br></div><div>where shade depends on time of year<br></div><div>and day I am curious how you would even<br></div><div>tag using it with shade.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not sure where you live, but in this region, heat is only problematic<br></div><div>in very specific months and very specific hours of a given day.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Poland. Shade is useful both in winter (where some would rather<br></div><div dir="auto">avoid it, but it is not so important).<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Shade would be desired by at least some cyclists/hikers/pedestrians<br></div><div dir="auto"> in summer months, often across the entire day.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>In my area deciduous trees, changing<br></div><div>sun location etc result in shade changing<br></div><div>massively during year.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In my area, in the few months of the warmest part of the summer where<br></div><div>shading matters at all in real life, the sun shines in a well defined<br></div><div>angle and deciduous trees have their foliage on. I would be surprised<br></div><div>if you lived on a planet where this goes differently.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">In Poland sun rises in East* and sets in West*, with angle changing as day progresses.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Also, shade info would be useful for people desiring sunny bench during winter.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It sounds like you want to map summer_midday_shade=*, not shade=* that sounds<br></div><div dir="auto">more reasonable and less misleading.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">* Southern-East and Southern-West to be more exact, with exact position changing<br></div><div dir="auto">as year progresses.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>Tree size should be estimatable by measuring<br></div><div>it's trunk diameter and species.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I've surveyed thousands of trees around the area, so I know exactly<br></div><div>how much work it is. It is unfeasible even for me, let alone laymen<br></div><div>mappers to do this. <br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I am not arguing that it is feasible, I am arguing that it is more feasible<br></div><div dir="auto">than shade=* <br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And using shade=* for "summer midday shade status" may it more<br></div><div dir="auto">feasible but it is making it misleading at least.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div dir="auto">The godfather of the iD editor called me names<br></div><div>some years ago when I suggested that it should be possible to add the<br></div><div>taxon or at least the genus of a tree, reasoning along the way that<br></div><div>mappers aren't smart enough to tell apart an apple tree from figs (and<br></div><div>if some of them can, they should be denied the possibility to mark it<br></div><div>anyway just because).<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">¯\_(ツ)_/¯<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I see no reason to treat it as a good reason for not mapping it.<br></div><div dir="auto">(I also had some disagreements with iD authors)<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div><br></div><div>Also, I'm not sure if you ever had a garden or been to one<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I am not wealthy enough to own garden but I visited several.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>towns or gardens where they trim trees (basically in many urban<br></div><div>areas), the trunk diameter keeps growing annually, but the height and<br></div><div>the number of branches and the volume of foliage stays approximately<br></div><div>the same every year (along with its cast shadow). I'd say at least<br></div><div>half of urban trees are trimmed as a method of precaution. My<br></div><div>botanical observation tells me that weather, the genetic makeup of the<br></div><div>given individual, its health and life record can cause a lot of<br></div><div>variance in crown diameter and foliage density (along with accidents<br></div><div>in the past and trimming patterns), so I think the approximation based<br></div><div>on the trunk would only be useful in the wild and in a statistical<br></div><div>(population) context, not for such micromapping.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Good point, still mapping crown diameter still seems more viable <br></div><div dir="auto">than shade=* as tree will give shade that changes as day and year progresses.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>Mapping approximate height of building<br></div><div>can be done by surveying.<br></div><div>See StreetComplete<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How many towns have you yourself drawn on an empty map, encircling<br></div><div>every structure and then walking through every street and adding the<br></div><div>height and shape of every building and fence?<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Zero, as I started mapping where Poland was not a blank map.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> We regularly organize<br></div><div>parties over here where many do this, I have drawn towns from the<br></div><div>ground up and many 3D stuff, so I know exactly how much work it is (a<br></div><div>lot, hence I prefer not to do that any more). I see you have lots of<br></div><div>edits (mostly single changes, though, so I can't feasible review<br></div><div>them), but I don't know how much 3D you have done.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I also know this, my city still has several thousands StreetComplete quests<br></div><div dir="auto">and solving more than 50 000 of them is only small part of that.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Around 15 000 were about building detail and most of that in Kraków.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>What you must understand is that unless you come over here and fill in<br></div><div>the map for us, it will never contain the needed information to a high<br></div><div>enough coverage that would make a service usable based on that. I<br></div><div>would guess that the situation is the same for most parts of the world<br></div><div>(especially where people walk and finding shade matters at all).<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">the same goes for shade=*<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If you want to map just midday summer shade then using<br></div><div dir="auto">summer_midday_shade=* seems much better tag that would be far less confusing.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>Hence you are basically saying that "if you can't do it 100%<br></div><div>precisely, don't do it!" or "you're either doing overtime and do it my<br></div><div>way or it's the highway!". This is toxic to the community.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">No, I am pointing that it is a dead end that will lead nowhere or will cause<br></div><div dir="auto">clearly visible problems in the future.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I was in position of saying to people "this mapped data is useless, as<br></div><div dir="auto">tagging scheme is fundamentally pointless/broken/useless" or seeing it,<br></div><div dir="auto">so I think that it is valuable to mention clear problems before massive work<br></div><div dir="auto">will be put into it.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>Volunteering does not work like that. The world does not work this<br></div><div>way. People have needs, there are many viable and useful solutions to<br></div><div>their problems, and people will definitely solve their problems one<br></div><div>way or another if they need to be solved.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">Though it is useful to solve problems in way that makes sense.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div dir="auto">It simply does not cut it<br></div><div>that naysayers say that they should not solve their problems.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I am not saying that, just saying that solution as presented and<br></div><div dir="auto">understood by me is doomed to failure.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>Still easier than mapping whether it shades<br></div><div>road depending on time of day and year.<br></div><blockquote>But how common is it that one would have all required data?<br></blockquote><div>More likely than mapping shade= in way<br></div><div>that would actually work given that<br></div><div>shade changes during day<br></div><div>Single 10 storey building would require<br></div><div>footways split every 10cm around it<br></div><div>(towards East, West, North from it)<br></div><div>or such shade=* tags would be useless.<br></div><div>That sounds like horrific idea that should<br></div><div>be considered as ridiculous, unusuable,<br></div><div>not worth encouraging and bad idea.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I agree that your recommendation is ridiculous and unusable. Lots<br></div><div>of straw man arguments here - I'd prefer if we wouldn't do that.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">I think that root of problem is that you care specifically about midday summer shade,<br></div><div dir="auto">where summer_midday_shade=yes/no/limited may be viable.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And I have taken shade=* as tag intended to cover shade status across entire day<br></div><div dir="auto">and across year that will fail.<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I would consider using summer_midday_shade=* if you tag that.<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>We have none of this data available in the whole country as I have<br></div><div>already stated, and I have shared a possible way of approximate<br></div><div>surveying that takes a similar amount of time as adding interpolated<br></div><div>house number ranges - stopping for a minute at each street corner.<br></div><div>There could exist other approximations and many others ways to tag<br></div><div>such approximation as well.<br></div><div><br></div><div>It was suggested on our local list that even an average percentage or<br></div><div>expected probability of shade could be marked per longer stretch of<br></div><div>path. I think that would be more difficult to verify exactly, but this<br></div><div>also shows that we could come up with lots of useful methods for<br></div><div>approximation if we really put some effort and a positive attitude in<br></div><div>it together.<br></div><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>Tagging mailing list<br></div><div>Tagging@openstreetmap.org<br></div><div>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div><div><br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><blockquote><div>- in case of placing lamps the goal is of<br></div><div>making entire stretch of easy lit,<br></div><div>something else happens in case of some<br></div><div>weird plans or deep incompetence<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Imagine that endangered trees can be protected in many places, so<br></div><div>trimming them is not allowed and they can thus grow unhindered. On<br></div><div>installation, the lamps provided enough light everywhere, but in a few<br></div><div>years, even the growth of a few branches that took a wrong turn could<br></div><div>block a significant portion of light.<br></div></blockquote><div dir="auto">As mentioned, way splitting may be necessary in case of incompetently<br></div><div dir="auto">placed street lamps mismatching the situation<br></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div> </body>
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