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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/08/2021 17:42, Guy Godfroy wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4b44101a-2195-a9cb-13e7-cc4bf9feeca5@gugod.fr">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">So you think that grouping all rites that are in full communion as the
catholic church can lead to the expression of domination. I do not share
this vision. Actually I think the opposite, since the current use of
denomination=catholic (despite the wiki page advice) means implicitly
roman_catholic. To me, that is not fair to the other rites.</pre>
</blockquote>
Yes, would express domination. As the semantic and use of "catholic"
is not used in practice for the denominations considered part of the
"union catholic church". So we shouldn't express this by using it as
a key in OSM.<br>
It seems to me you are somehow stuck on the perception that
tag:denomination=catholic is an equivalent, or at least used as such
in OSM, for tag:denomination=roman_catholic. I think we don't have
any means to verify this. It might be a valid conclusion for a local
situation, but not accurate for global use. What we should keep in
mind is that on a global scale, any mapper should be able to map
Catholic premises, being it a muslim, a protestant, a buddhist,
atheist or whatever religious background and knowledge.<br>
True, as said before, the wiki describes somehow vague that more
specific denominations are preferred, but doesn't say that it
should be used or misused in that way. The denominations, being
considered as part of the union Catholic church or not (where union
Catholic church is also not consistently used across the
denominations, but at least listed as such in our wiki). So I would
suggest making the description and the use of "catholic", as
alternative for the more specific values, more specific. By
explicitly saying "not to be considered as alternative for any of
the catholic denominations" but as an option to tag those situations
where it is not clear, either by global consensus, local preference
of the religious community, or because the mapper lacks the detailed
knowledge or history for the religion.<br>
<p>An alternative is to completely discourage it's use at all when
the mapper is in doubt or lacks detailed knowledge. Since
assigning it might exclude, or offend churches like the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America"
title="">Evangelical Lutheran Church in America</a> and the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_Canada"
title="Soteriology">Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada.</a>
One should keep in mind that, if you allow me to cite wikipedia, "The
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church"
title="Catholic Church">Catholic Church</a> considers only those
in full communion with the Holy See in Rome as Catholics. While
recognising the valid episcopates and Eucharist of the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church"
title="Eastern Orthodox Church">Eastern Orthodox Church</a> in
most cases, it does not consider Protestant denominations such as
Lutheran ones to be genuine churches and so uses the term
"ecclesial communities" to refer to them.". The Catholic Union
church as you refer to it, by this practice is actually claiming
the use of the semantic word "catholic" for it's own practices,
thus trying to dominate based on historical grounds. The very same
practice which has led to it's demise and creation of different
Christian denominations.<br>
I'm afraid by doing so with a new "catholic" subkey you are going
to incite the same competition, not resolving the current misuse
or better said, inaccuracy, express the same practice which
historically has proven not to be acceptable. Acceptable as in
recognition of other religions and denominations within those
religions.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4b44101a-2195-a9cb-13e7-cc4bf9feeca5@gugod.fr">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Also, rites in full communion are accepting each other ; that means that
a traveling Catholic looking for a place of worship can totally go to a
catholic place with a different rite than they are used to, they won't
lack anything spiritually. Spending the rest of their life to a
different place with a different rite isn't morally wrong for any of the
churches that are in full communion, this isn't apostasy.
When a church isn't in full communion with the great catholic church,
then they both acknowledge that they are not in full communion. And even
is they may adopt term "catholic" as well, that won't be "catholic"
alone, for example the Old Catholic.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>True, but if I understood your intentions correctly, is not the
issue you are trying to resolve here, neither is it increased by
the current tag:denomination=catholic. The issue is inaccuracy or
misuse of "catholic", both for those lacking detailed knowledge,
those considering themselves "catholic" but not part of the Great
Catholic Church or Catholic Union Church and of course those who
do and have good arguments to claim the term. But for those we
have, both in and outside of OSM, provided a consensus with more
specific names.</p>
<p>Greetings,</p>
<p>Bert Araali</p>
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