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<br><br><br><a href="https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS">Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone</a><br><br><p class="yahoo-quoted-begin" style="font-size: 15px; color: #715FFA; padding-top: 15px; margin-top: 0">On Sunday, October 17, 2021, 12:51 PM, tagging-request@openstreetmap.org <tagging-request@openstreetmap.org> wrote:</p><blockquote class="iosymail"><div dir="ltr">Send Tagging mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:tagging-request@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging-request@openstreetmap.org">tagging-request@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:tagging-owner@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging-owner@openstreetmap.org">tagging-owner@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Tagging digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00 (Yves)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr"> (Mateusz Konieczny)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 3. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr"> (Mateusz Konieczny)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 4. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00 (Yves)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 5. Re: opening_hours and related tags: hours past 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr"> (Mateusz Konieczny)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 18:11:47 +0200<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Yves <<a ymailto="mailto:ycai@mailbox.org" href="mailto:ycai@mailbox.org">ycai@mailbox.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>, Tod Fitch <<a ymailto="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org" href="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org">tod@fitchfamily.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:0A4E6FEA-3BB8-4C66-B9F2-F39E97E72C84@mailbox.org" href="mailto:0A4E6FEA-3BB8-4C66-B9F2-F39E97E72C84@mailbox.org">0A4E6FEA-3BB8-4C66-B9F2-F39E97E72C84@mailbox.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. <br></div><div dir="ltr">I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?<br></div><div dir="ltr">Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Yves <br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Le 17 octobre 2021 17:28:48 GMT+02:00, Tod Fitch <<a ymailto="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org" href="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org">tod@fitchfamily.org</a>> a ?crit?:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> On Oct 17, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Snusmumriken <<a ymailto="mailto:snusmumriken.mapper@runbox.com" href="mailto:snusmumriken.mapper@runbox.com">snusmumriken.mapper@runbox.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> On Sun, 2021-10-17 at 12:25 +0200, Simon Poole wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Am 17.10.2021 um 08:13 schrieb Snusmumriken:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> ...<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> Could you explain why a mapper should do an abstraction from what<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> is<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> posted on a sign? Given that a value like Fr-Sa 21:00-05:00 is<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> without<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> ambiguity.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Because the contents of an opening hours tag are based on a highly<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> formalized grammar, just adding an extra day with different hours<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> already requires you to know that grammar. It could be argued that<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> that<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> is the case even for your super simple example, for example that<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> leading<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> zeros are in principle required in times, that the weekday<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> identifiers<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> are two letter English abbreviations and so on. But as I already<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> pointed<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> out you are mixing up internal representation with data entry and<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> display.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Could I ask, do you consider Fr-Sa 21:00-05:00 to be ambiguous? If not,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I haven't really heard (or perhaps understood) any argument why one<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> should deviate from what's on a posted sign and arguably stands for the<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Ground Truth. Sure one could have an internal representation that's<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> different from the Ground Truth but I think there has to be a really<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> strong rational for doing that. And so far I haven't heard any.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">>You quoted the strong rational: The value of the opening hours tag has a formal grammar. Formal grammar is important for machine interpretation of the value.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/9dbf275e/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/9dbf275e/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 18:42:57 +0200 (CEST)<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Mateusz Konieczny <<a ymailto="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:MmE7cKb--3-2@tutanota.com" href="mailto:MmE7cKb--3-2@tutanota.com">MmE7cKb--3-2@tutanota.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Oct 17, 2021, 17:28 by <a ymailto="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org" href="mailto:tod@fitchfamily.org">tod@fitchfamily.org</a>:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> You quoted the strong rational: The value of the opening hours tag has a formal grammar. Formal grammar is important for machine interpretation of the value.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">Unless I am misinterpreting - this formal grammar allows both variants.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/bd6e456c/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/bd6e456c/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 18:52:13 +0200 (CEST)<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Mateusz Konieczny <<a ymailto="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Yves via Tagging <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:MmE9k7H--3-2@tutanota.com" href="mailto:MmE9k7H--3-2@tutanota.com">MmE9k7H--3-2@tutanota.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Oct 17, 2021, 18:11 by <a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. <br></div><div dir="ltr">> I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Yves <br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">1) noone will be trying to train some pattern-recognition (often called AI buzzword),<br></div><div dir="ltr">that is a terrible choice where parsers work well<br></div><div dir="ltr">2) haphazard extensions would be a bad idea as it is easy to get actual incompatibity<br></div><div dir="ltr">between parsers in various editors/data consumers and end with quagmire<br></div><div dir="ltr">impossible to resolve<br></div><div dir="ltr">3) unless I am wrong (if I am please let me know) this variant is also allowed<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/7956fdbe/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/7956fdbe/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 4<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:17:21 +0200<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Yves <<a ymailto="mailto:ycai@mailbox.org" href="mailto:ycai@mailbox.org">ycai@mailbox.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>, Yves via Tagging<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:F9FA01DD-D948-4D78-AEE1-64579EC08FF0@mailbox.org" href="mailto:F9FA01DD-D948-4D78-AEE1-64579EC08FF0@mailbox.org">F9FA01DD-D948-4D78-AEE1-64579EC08FF0@mailbox.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Sorry, I was referring to a recent discussion about mapping opening hours from photos.<br></div><div dir="ltr">I did not thought about parsing them yet, you have just opened the pandora box ;-)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Yves <br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Le 17 octobre 2021 18:52:13 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> a ?crit?:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>Oct 17, 2021, 18:11 by <a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Yves <br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>1) noone will be trying to train some pattern-recognition (often called AI buzzword),<br></div><div dir="ltr">>that is a terrible choice where parsers work well<br></div><div dir="ltr">>2) haphazard extensions would be a bad idea as it is easy to get actual incompatibity<br></div><div dir="ltr">>between parsers in various editors/data consumers and end with quagmire<br></div><div dir="ltr">>impossible to resolve<br></div><div dir="ltr">>3) unless I am wrong (if I am please let me know) this variant is also allowed<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/163482dd/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/163482dd/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 5<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:41:05 +0200 (CEST)<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Mateusz Konieczny <<a ymailto="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Tagging] opening_hours and related tags: hours past<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 24:00<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:MmEKw7Q--3-2@tutanota.com" href="mailto:MmEKw7Q--3-2@tutanota.com">MmEKw7Q--3-2@tutanota.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In such system converting from 20:00-2:00 to? either<br></div><div dir="ltr">20:00-02:00 or 20:00-26:00 is likely the easiest step :)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Oct 17, 2021, 19:17 by <a ymailto="mailto:ycai@mailbox.org" href="mailto:ycai@mailbox.org">ycai@mailbox.org</a>:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Sorry, I was referring to a recent discussion about mapping opening hours from photos.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> I did not thought about parsing them yet, you have just opened the pandora box ;-)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Yves <br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Le 17 octobre 2021 18:52:13 GMT+02:00, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>> a ?crit?:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Oct 17, 2021, 18:11 by <a ymailto="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> You can't expect a few of the few mappers interested in opening hours not to map what's on the sign if it's 20:00-05:00. Especially those training AI bots. <br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> I've never written a parser myself, but is it so hard to accommodate both ways?<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Regards,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Yves <br></div><div dir="ltr">>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> 1) noone will be trying to train some pattern-recognition (often called AI buzzword),<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> that is a terrible choice where parsers work well<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> 2) haphazard extensions would be a bad idea as it is easy to get actual incompatibity<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> between parsers in various editors/data consumers and end with quagmire<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> impossible to resolve<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> 3) unless I am wrong (if I am please let me know) this variant is also allowed<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/971cc237/attachment.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20211017/971cc237/attachment.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Digest Footer<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Tagging mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">End of Tagging Digest, Vol 145, Issue 30<br></div><div dir="ltr">****************************************<br></div><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
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