<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">I think this example is a bit more complex if you look into it, and there are a couple of issues that are worthy of separate discussion thread.<div><br></div><div>Firstly, when should highway=footway become a pedestrian area? Ultimately a subjective decision, but I personally consider whether the way has widened to beyond 5 meters and whether movement of pedestrians is not expected to be simply linear. Some pedestrian ways wider than 5m exist because a common 2m wide footway/sidewalk would not be wide enough to contain a large number of pedestrians and I would not map these as a Pedestrian Area. In the given example the location has clearly been widened to create an area, and I think it is acceptable to map this as an area with a way mapped through it.</div><div><br></div><div>Second issue, specific to this example, is the impact of access to bicycles. Current, and historic street level imagery shows this location had a standard approx 2m sidewalk up to 2016 at which time the location was developed to create the current arrangement. Importantly there are now statutory "shared use" signs at the entrance to this area/way. This means there is, with regard to UK legal definitions, no footway/sidewalk present. The way and area falls legally under the UK legal definition of Cycle Track (with shared use by pedestrians). The use of "path" is questionable, and appears controversial for UK mapping, with the most common way to map statutory Cycle Tracks being to use cycleway tagging, with in this case pedestrian=yes. The current path was mapped as a cycleway and was only changed to a path five months ago.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd argue the overall highway design of this area is an abomination, and fortunately statutory highways design guidance issued by the UK Government in 2020 should mean this mess of a design should not happen again. Hopefully a clear separated cycleway is created or marked adjacent to the main road in the near future.<br><br>Third issue(?). So I'm arguing the whole area is legally, in the UK, a Cycle Track shared with pedestrians. So is the pedestrian area tag suitable? I still argue it was. (
I don't think we have a tag for areas that are equally pedestrian & cycle areas?).
I'd map, or reinstate the cycleway, and retain the pedestrian area around it with the addition of bicycle=designated to the area. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Jass</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 at 12:11, nathan case <<a href="mailto:nathancase@outlook.com">nathancase@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal">> highway=pedestrian area=yes<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> seems to be not fitting for this, in my opinion.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I agree. I can see the justification in why it has been done – the mapper wants to show the pedestrian area, rather than just a linear way and this is the only(?) way it’ll get rendered. However,
the actual object doesn’t really match the highway=pedestrian description. It would seem odd to allow a supplementary tag (area=yes) to change (or ignore) the meaning of the primary tag (highway=pedestrian).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>></span> highway=pedestrian area=yes misused for footway/sidewalk areas<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Note that the last one claim may be controversial, some claim that mapping
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> sidewalk as highway=pedestrian area=yes in addition or instead to<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> highway=footway line is OK.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> In some places such mapping is really popular.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>If this is indeed a popular way to tag wide sidewalks, then I’ll leave it as it. We should probably consider documenting this on the Wiki too if usage is high.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Thanks all.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28 October 2021 10:46<br>
<b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mateusz Konieczny <<a href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" target="_blank">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] When does highway=footway become highway=pedestrian?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">For me it looks like a sidewalk, maybe a bit wider than usual. I would use<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">highway=footway (with very optional area:highway=footway area)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">or<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">use sidewalk tags on road, if that would be a local standard.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">highway=pedestrian<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">or<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">highway=pedestrian area=yes<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">seems to be not fitting for this, in my opinion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Oct 27, 2021, 16:43 by <a href="mailto:nathancase@outlook.com" target="_blank">
nathancase@outlook.com</a>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(147,163,184);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Thanks all for the comments so far.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This is the Google maps Streetview link:
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4457248,-1.8176195,3a,75y,243.25h,90.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svoVWzs3jxPFNcpfhvpc4eg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192" target="_blank">
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4457248,-1.8176195,3a,75y,243.25h,90.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svoVWzs3jxPFNcpfhvpc4eg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hopefully that works OK. Travel to the right to see more.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Cheers.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 27 October 2021 12:07<br>
<b>To:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mateusz Konieczny <<a href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" target="_blank">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tagging] When does highway=footway become highway=pedestrian?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Oct 26, 2021, 16:00 by
<a href="mailto:nathancase@outlook.com" target="_blank">nathancase@outlook.com</a>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(147,163,184);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I’ve just posted this on the Wiki discussion page (</span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dpedestrian#.22For_town_centres_and_civic_areas.22" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dpedestrian#.22For_town_centres_and_civic_areas.22</span></a><span lang="EN-US">)
but the thread is a little old and I know not everyone reads the Wiki anyway…</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I’m wondering at what point, if at all, a highway=footway becomes highway=pedestrian (i.e., a pedestrian area)? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are several things here<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- sidewalk tags (sidewalk as attribute of road)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- highway=footway<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- highway=pedestrian for pedestrian road<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- area:highway=footway for area of footway/sidewalk (mapped as an extra)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- highway=pedestrian area=yes for pedestrian squares<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- highway=pedestrian area=yes misused for footway/sidewalk areas<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note that the last one claim may be controversial, some claim that mapping<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">sidewalk as highway=pedestrian area=yes in addition or instead to<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">highway=footway line is OK.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In some places such mapping is really popular.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(147,163,184);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal">I have an example (<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/365487665#map=18/52.44601/-1.81904" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/365487665#map=18/52.44601/-1.81904</a>)
of a sidewalk that has been mapped as a pedestrian area. It is certainly quite wide (around 7-8 m in places) and is located within a town centre/civic area. It even has painted markings (since COVID-19 pandemic began) splitting the direction of travel for
pedestrians - though this is, of course, entirely ignored by everyone walking there.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, it is, fundamentally, just a wide paved area for pedestrians that runs parallel and adjacent to the main carriageway (road) – i.e. a sidewalk.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do we define particularly wide sidewalks as pedestrian areas? They do seem to match most of the criteria listed on the Wiki but it doesn’t seem to quite fit for me.<u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Linking photos would be useful. In principle I can imagine place that can be treated<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">as a dual carriageway, one of them mapped as highway=pedestrian line.<u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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