<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Journey-Oriented Recreational Traffic guidance is the regular mapping of (mostly) recreational routes in OSM, provided it's visible/verifiable (signposted, waymarked). </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>agreed, if "journey-oriented" means "touristic"</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Destination-Oriented Everyday Traffic guidance for most forms of transport is not usually mapped in OSM. Fact is that it's present/visible/verifiable in most countries. So yes, it can be mapped. <br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>agreed if "destination-oriented" means "efficient"</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>It really does not matter whether the physical signs are on integrated guideposts or separate posts or a mix. It's about what they provide for the traveller: where to go, where to ride, what way to use, how to get to the next clue. </div></div></blockquote><div>(what are "integrated signposts"?) </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>In my view, the guideposts mark the route to take, not the physical ways. The physical ways can be / often are completely unmarked for this purpose. </div></div></blockquote><div>Hmmm. <br></div><div>So far I have always tagged ways as defining the journey-oriented hiking or cycling routes by making them part of the route relations. Sometimes I included signposts, but as a technical convenience, not for routing purposes. And as far as I know routers/navigation devices can "digest" that kind of routes.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>The way doesn't know it's being routed over. This is equivalent to the OSM system of route relations, where a way can be added to any number of route relations for many purposes, without having to tag the way with all these routes and purposes. </div></div></blockquote><div>Sure, an OSM way can be part of many route relations. </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>It's up to the mapper how to define begin and end of such routes. </div></div></blockquote><div>Depends on the type of route: bi-directional A <> B routes are the most frequent topology (where typically A>B and B>A do not use exactly the same ways - there may be oneway stretches that are tagged by forward/backward role tags. Most of these linear routes can be used both ways and the mapper is free to decide whether A or B is the start.</div><div>In case of circular routes the mapper is normally free to pick a beginning for the list ways in the relation.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Mapping all destinations to all other destinations is not very practical. In this case, mapping Guidepost2Guidepost seems feasible, and could cover the whole system of destination oriented traffic guidance wherever it occurs and whatever form it takes. It's a hell of a job, but if people want to do it, be my guest!</div></div></blockquote><div>Is that not called <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cycle_Node_Network_Tagging" target="_blank">Cycle_Node_Network_Tagging</a> ?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Nothing new so far, all of this is being done already. Nothing is invented here. So what's new?</div></div></blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>If you want to enable data users to provide special handling of destination oriented routes, different than how recreational routes are handled, the relations need a tag to make that possible. </div></div></blockquote><div>That is the point I have in mind. </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>So, why not limit the discussion (and the proposal from which it sprouted) to which tag would be appropriate to distinguish destination oriented routes from recreational routes?</div></div></blockquote><div>YES </div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>For me, two things are important:</div><div><br></div><div>* The tag should not interfere with existing tags (should not require retagging existing route relations)</div></div></blockquote><div>obviously, but this requires a re-definition of the existing cycling or hiking routes.</div><div>Unfortunately we cannot be sure that all existing routes are "journey-oriented"</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>* The tag should be generic, i.e. applicable to all modes of transport, in all countries, and all geographic scopes. It indicates a purpose. The other aspects are already present in other tags.</div></div></blockquote><div>OK also for this. This would also solve the distinction of tagging for "Route Nationale xyz" and "<font size="2"><span style="font-weight:normal">Route du vin en Roussillon".</span></font></div><div><font size="2"><span style="font-weight:normal"><br></span></font></div><div><font size="2"><span style="font-weight:normal">Now let's define the tags and make the whole thing a proposal<br></span></font></div><ul><li><font size="2"><span style="font-weight:normal">journey-oriented, touristic, recreational. ...<br></span></font></li><li><font size="2"><span style="font-weight:normal">destination-oriented, efficient, commuting, ...</span></font></li></ul><div><font size="2">And the "Basic Network" seems to have disappeared or better has been transformed. The "basic network" is the set (in the mathematical sense) of all ways that are suitable for cycling traffic. In case a country creates a well-defined criterion for this, we may think of using a specific tag, otherwise a search may find them:<br></font></div><div>
<span></span>
<p style="background-position:0% 0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.2cm;break-before:auto">
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace">type:way</font></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> (</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace">(((highway=cycleway
or ((highway=track or highway=path) and </font></span></span>
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace">(bicycle=designated or
bicycle=official)))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> ((highway=pedestrian and
(bicycle=yes or bicycle=permissive or<br>
bicycle=designated))))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> or
(highway=* </font></span></span>
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace">and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> ((cycleway=track or
cycleway:left=track or cycleway:right=track or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> cycleway:both=track) or
((cycleway=lane or cycleway:left=lane or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> cycleway:right=lane or
cycleway:both=lane or cycleway=opposite_lane))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> ((cycleway=lane or
cycleway:left=lane or cycleway:right=lane or cycleway:both=lane)</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> ((cycleway:left:oneway=no or
cycleway:left:oneway:bicycle=no) </font></span></span>
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace">or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> (cycleway:right:oneway=no or
cycleway:right:oneway:bicycle=no)</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> (cycleway:oneway=no or
cycleway:oneway:bicycle=no)))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> ((cycleway:left=share_busway or
cycleway:right=share_busway or cycleway=share_busway or
cycleway=opposite_share_busway))))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> or</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> ((highway=*
and (motor_vehicle=no or motor_vehicle=private or
motor_vehicle=destination or vehicle=no or vehicle=private or
vehicle=destination))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> highway!=cycleway</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> highway!=footway</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> highway!=path</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> highway!=pedestrian</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> (bicycle=yes
or bicycle=permissive))</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace">)</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and (construction!=*)</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"> and
(highway!=construction)</font></span></span></p><p style="background-position:0% 0%;background-repeat:repeat;background-image:none;background-size:auto;background-origin:padding-box;background-clip:border-box;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.2cm;break-before:auto"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2" face="Courier New, monospace"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">(no guarantee that I copied this correctly from my searches of cyclable ways in my home city)</span><br></font></span></span></p>
</div><div><font size="2">Volker</font><br></div></div></div>