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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Volker,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Happy to see that you’re looking into the tagging scheme that we used in Belgium for mapping cycle highways. There’s a lot more information about
this tagging scheme on the wiki: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycle_network%3DBE-VLG:cycle_highway">
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycle_network%3DBE-VLG:cycle_highway</a> It’s probably best to suggest improvements over there (on the Discussion page), as this thread is already very long and it was originally on a slightly different topic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Seppe<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="NL">Van:</span></b><span lang="NL"> Volker Schmidt <voschix@gmail.com>
<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> maandag 29 november 2021 10:23<br>
<b>Aan:</b> Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - value 'basic_network' - cycle_network?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hmmm.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This tagging has issues, apart from the fact that it proves that my assumption that bicycle routes in OSM are touristic, is not valid in Belgium. :-(<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The tag bicycle:type=utility is used here not in line with the (relatively recent) wiki page
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Abicycle%3Atype">Bicycle:type</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't like the use of network=NCN (nation-wide cycling network) together with cycle-network for the
<i>name</i> of the network.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The key cycle_highway is a very recent new tag, and invites confusion with
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cyclestreet">cyclestreet</a> an <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bicycle_road">
bicycle_road</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The ref F7 is repeated in the name.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Virus-free.
</span><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 23:35, Peter Elderson <<a href="mailto:pelderson@gmail.com">pelderson@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Our Belgian friends are mapping "Cycle highways" ("Fiets-snelwegen") which are being rolled out over the country (of course, they call it a network of cycle_highways). Signposting will still take some time to complete; they use lifecycle tags
to make sure only waymarked sections show up and are routed. The routes are chains of ways in route relations, tagged as follows:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">bicycle:type</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">utility</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">cycle_highway</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">yes</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">cycle_network</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BE-VLG:cycle_highway</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">name</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">F7 Fietssnelweg Gent - De Pinte</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">network</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">ncn</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">operator</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Provincie Oost-Vlaanderen;Provincie West-Vlaanderen</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">ref</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">F7</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">route</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">bicycle</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">type</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">route</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The function/purpose is packed in the tag: cycle_highway=yes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It's used for emphasized rendering and adapted weight for routing. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">They show up on waymarkedtrails, as national routes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">They have no plans to tag all officially destination-signposted ways as such, nor to create relations for that purpose.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Just a frontline story.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Single comment: the cycle_network=* tag is not adding much here!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter Elderson<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Op zo 28 nov. 2021 om 22:29 schreef Sebastian Gürtler <<a href="mailto:sebastian.guertler@gmx.de" target="_blank">sebastian.guertler@gmx.de</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Am 28.11.21 um 21:28 schrieb Peter Elderson:<br>
> I am not a fan of the word basic in key or value. It suggests that<br>
> other routes are built on top of these routes, which in general is not<br>
> the case.<br>
I don't know the situation in whole Germany but in the regions I know I<br>
would say in general it is really the case but there are some exceptions<br>
(as far as I know outdated routes, I haven't seen newly designed routes<br>
that don't follow the new scheme).<br>
> Germany may have a business rule for cycling that all cycling routes<br>
> use these basic routes, but in fact they don't. In my experience with<br>
> this kind of rule, it never works out completely, and business rules<br>
> change. If any country can do it, it's Germany, but even then it's a<br>
> localised exception, it works only for cycling in the parts of Germany<br>
> that implemented the integrated guideposts completely and removed<br>
> other types of guideposts.<br>
<br>
That's an important fact that the reality has different networks or at<br>
least one quite well defined network and more or less independent<br>
cycling routes in parallel.<br>
<br>
So a complete generalized tagging wouldn't be able to reflect the actual<br>
situation. Finally I think the most suitable solution for my intention<br>
to map the emerging network may really be describing just that there is<br>
a cycle network with special features, find a name which has a broad<br>
consensus and put it as value for cycle_network=DE:xyz. As stated by<br>
Steve, this could be combined with other network identifiers if<br>
necessary in special cases. This could be discussed in the German forum,<br>
and it wouldn't interfere with tagging in other regions.<br>
<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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