<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">The problem with waterway=dock is that it is used for several different things, only some of which are normally areas of inland water. <div><br></div><div>Recall that natural=water is used for the area of "<span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Any inland body of water" But this is not consistent with how waterway=dock is used:</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">1) many waterway=dock areas are part of the sea, because the tag is often used to tag a named part of a harbor, such as a slip or berth or quay, or for marines (normally tagged leisure=marina) This was not the original intention of use for waterway=dock but it is quite common (for example, see the usage around Venice Italy). Such areas should not get the tag natural=water because they should be outside of the natural=coastline. Also many are mapped only as a node because they do not have clearly defined outer limits, but natural=water must be mapped as an area. </span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">2) Other waterway=dock features are also tagged with man_made=pier or are clearly meant to represent floating or elevated piers. Unfortunately this is the common meaning of the word "dock" in North American English. All the examples around Portland Oregon are this usage, for example. These cannot be tagged natural=water, obviously, though they should mostly be re-tagged as man_made=pier (or man_made=quay rarely)</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">3) dry docks and floating (dry) docks are tagged with waterway=dock and dock=drydock / floating. A floating dock is certainly not an area of water, is it like a kind of barge or vessel which is used to lift boats or ships out of the water for servicing. And a dry dock appears to be dry land 99% of the time in most cases. Some could be considered an intermittent water area like an ephemeral lake or a flood control basin, but only if the dry dock is still functional.</span></font></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">4) Tidal docks, which are also confusingly called "floating" docks or harbours in parts of the UK, fit the current definition of "</span></font><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">an enclosed area of water for ships and other craft within which the height of the water can be managed" by the use of tidal gates or locks. This could be tagged as natural=water plus a new tag like water=tidal_dock</span></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px"> </span></font></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">5) The term "dock" is also used for ship or boat yards, which may contain dry docks but also areas of dry land used for shipbuilding, repair and maintenance. These might be tagged now as waterway=boatyard or landuse=port or landuse=industrial <a class="gmail_plusreply" id="plusReplyChip-2">+</a> </span></font><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">industrial=shipyard or industrial=port, but some are tagged waterway=dock</span></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px"><br></span></font></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">So if we wish to retag these features, not all can be changed to natural=water, some ought to be man_made=pier or =quay, some should be a tag for harbours which are not marinas (harbour=yes and </span></font><tt dir="ltr" class="gmail-mw-content-ltr" style="font-size:1em;font-family:monospace,monospace;direction:ltr;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:seamark" title="Key:seamark" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none">seamark</a>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:seamark%3Dharbour&action=edit&redlink=1" class="gmail-new" title="Tag:seamark=harbour (page does not exist)" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(165,88,88);background-image:none">harbour</a></tt><span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span class="gmail-Apple-converted-space"> are</span></span><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"> in use but is not clearly defined), and some should be a new tag like man_made=drydock or floating_drydock, to replace the current diverse uses of this tag. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">I would support developing more specific tags, because in the current situation it is unclear what is meant when you see the tag waterway=dock, it is always necessary to check the surroundings and additional tags. But a single tag will not work well, especially not with natural=water. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">- Joseph Eisenberg</span></div><div><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:14px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">(I will also re-open discussion about removing the water color tagging for these areas in the openstreetmap-carto style, since it is clear that many or most of these features are not inland water areas)</span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 8:07 AM Dave F <<a href="mailto:davefoxfac63@btinternet.com">davefoxfac63@btinternet.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 01/04/2022 22:19, Mateusz Konieczny
via Tagging wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>waterway=* have several water=related objects which are not
water<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That's not a reason not to fix waterway=dock<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">water=* accompanies natural=water<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, and your point is?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">all docks are water-related, not all of them are
natural=water objects<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
There are many 'none natural' objects tagged as natural. Reservoirs
for instance. It's the water that's classed as natural, not its
container.<br>
<br>
DaveF<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Apr 1, 2022, 17:19 by <a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>That's really irrelevant to this proposal of moving the
dock tag from waterway= to water= which are both water
features. <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> DaveF<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>On 01/04/2022 15:26, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Only some types of docks contain water. A dry
dock is usually dry, a floating dock is also not a water
feature . <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">From the wiki page:<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<ul dir="auto">
<li>
<div><span><a title="Key:dock" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dock" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">dock</a>=<a title="Tag:dock=tidal" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:dock%3Dtidal" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tidal</a></span> - For a
tidal dock, where the dock holds a stable water level in
a basin, in order to make loading and offloading of
ships easier, or to have a safe harbour in areas with a
large tidal difference.<br>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<div><span><a title="Key:dock" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dock" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">dock</a>=<a title="Tag:dock=drydock" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:dock%3Ddrydock" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">drydock</a></span> - Usually
a maintenance dock where ships can enter to do
inspections and maintenance on the wet surface of the
hull.<br>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<div><span><a title="Key:dock" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dock" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">dock</a>=<a title="Tag:dock=floating" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:dock%3Dfloating" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">floating</a></span> -
Floating docks are usually a large floating structure
with the purpose to lift a vessel out of the water for
maintenance or inspections of the wet surface of the
hull<br>
</div>
</li>
</ul>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:29 AM
Dave F via Tagging <<a href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org" rel="noopener
noreferrer" target="_blank">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>Hi<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> The dock tag is currently using the waterway
schema.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Ddock" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Ddock</a><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> As enclosed water features, "have largely been
replaced by natural=water <br>
</div>
<div> + water=lake/river" etc, and the waterway tag is
largely for linear <br>
</div>
<div> objects, what, if any, are the reasons for
maintaining 'dock' as a waterway?<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> DaveF<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
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