<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Jens,</div><div><br></div><div>(I am a bicycle-centered mapper in Italy.)</div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>I'm currently preparing to map a new cycle track that was recently
completed. We're lucky enough that someone has filmed this with a
drone: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sevJH7AXxU" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sevJH7AXxU</a></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A very forma question: can we use a youtube video as a source for OSM data? I would not think so. <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>The design manual for cycle tracks</div></blockquote><div>quote? <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> states they must be elevated from
the carriageway, and optionally with a sidewalk that is even more
elevated, and must be ramped down to the carriageway level at every
junction and be marked as a cycle lane. </div></blockquote><div>Does this also hold for driveways joining the road? <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Also, the design manual
states that it must be placed behind bus stops.<br></div></blockquote><div>How does the pedestrian (including wheelchair user) get to the bus-stop-platform ? She needs to cross the cycle track that that is between the footway and the bus stop platform?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
What this video shows is going to be a typical setup in Norway in
the time to come, so I thought I'd prepare a mapping guide for
OSM-NO.<br></div></blockquote><div>Good idea. <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> Cycle tracks can be mapped with the carriageway on a single line</div></blockquote><div>should be discouraged, in my view, if there is any kind of barrier (kerb, strip of grass, ...) <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>, or
as a separate line.<br></div></blockquote><div>should be indicated as preferred <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
As a single line, a normal scenario will be this:<br>
<br>
<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">highway=* +
cycleway:*=lane + sidewalk=* </font> for the parts around
junctions <br></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">highway=* +
cycleway:*=track + sidewalk=*</font> for the middle parts<br>
<font face="Courier New, Courier, monospace"><font size="2">highway=*
+ cycleway:left/right=track + sidewalk:left/right</font> </font>for
the non-bus stop-side and<font face="Courier New, Courier,
monospace"> <font size="2">highway=cycleway + sidewalk=*</font></font>
for the bus stop-side<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Just to make sure I understand correctly<br></div><div>This normal scenario is to tag motor-traffic-carriageway + two one-way cycle-only ways + two pedestrian-only ways, all separated from each other by kerbs?</div><div><br></div><div>I presume "Parts around junctions" means the cycle and pedestrian crossings on the side road, as shown at 27" in the video.</div><div>This means you do not map the cycle-pedestrian crossing on the side road.</div><div>The video shows only a cycle crossing (bicycle lane with dashed lines), but where do the pedestrians cross the side road ???</div><div><br></div><div>I presume the "middle parts" are the layout shown at 1' in the video.</div><div>Fine apart form the fact that the single lane tagging does not allow you to:</div><ul><li>indicate whether the sidewalk is close to the carriageway or the cycle path.</li><li>distinguish between a situation where a white line or colour difference separates the foot part from the cycle part or a kerb or another type of separator</li></ul><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
As a separate line, you'd potentially have this: <br></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, monospace"><font face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">highway=* +
cycleway:*=lane + sidewalk=*</font></font> for the parts around
junctions </div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><font face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">
<font size="2">(2x) highway=cycleway + sidewalk=*</font></font>
for the middle parts<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The standard option that is often used here would be three ways, when there is a physical separation between foot and cycle lane (like the kerb in your case)<br></div><div>For the carriageway:</div><div><ul><li>highway=whatever</li></ul><div>For each foot-cycleway<br></div></div><ul><li>highway=path</li><li>foot=designated</li><li>bicycle=designated</li><li>segregated=yes</li></ul><div>For the crossing of side-roads in addition:</div><div>- for the crossing way<br></div><div><ul><li>path=crossing</li></ul><div>- on the crossing node</div><div><ul><li>highway=crossing</li></ul></div></div><div><br></div><div>The third, even more correct scheme in your case seems using up to five separate ways: carriageway + two one-way cycle paths (highway=cycleway) + two footways as sidewalks.</div><div><br></div><div>In that case we do have on the ground separate, parallel crossing ways for bicycle and pedestrians, typically a few meters apart<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
Either scheme is fine, depending on what mappers want to do, so that
is NOT what this question is about :)<br>
<br>
The downside of the second approach is we are not "allowed" to tag
the <font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, monospace">highway=cycleway</font>
as a track.<br></div></blockquote><div>What is the problem with this?. cycleway=track is only used in the case the single-way approach, which is not applicable in that case.<br></div><div>With the approach foot=designated / bicycle=designated people also use highway=track, highway=cycleway instead of highway=path, if they are happier that way.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<br>
The reason it would be valuable to tag <font face="Courier New,
Courier, monospace">highway=cycleway</font> as a track in this
instance is that a track has requirements for separation from other
mode types that are more similar to a cycle lane than to an actual
bike path (at least in Norway). So you'll be significantly safer on
a bike path than you will be on a cycle track, and marginally safer
on a cycle track than in a cycle lane. For that reason, it'd be nice
to know if what we have is a track or a path.<br></div></blockquote><div>Could you give pointers to photos of real situations, please, for the Norwegian cycle track and cycle paths you are referring to. <br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
For those who are interested, the requirement is 3 m separation
between bike path and carriageway when the speed limit is > 50
kph, 1.5 m separation when the speed limit is <= 50 kph, and
optionally separation can be achieved with a ~1 m proper fence if
there isn't enough room for those separation distances.<br>
<br>
Compared to a cycle track, where the separation requirement is a 10
cm kerb (which is only an obstacle from the carriageway
perspective), regardless of speed limit. <br>
<br>
I would be much more comfortable sending my kids out on a bike path
than on a cycle track, and I'd rate the track and the lane as
practically the same when it comes to my kids. Obviously the 3 m/1.5
m/fence will keep them out of danger even if they veer or fall, but
the 10 cm drop down the kerb won't.<br>
<br>
So, my question is:<br>
<br>
How could we tag separately drawn cycleway tracks so that we know
they are tracks?<br></div></blockquote><div> </div><div>This seems to boil down on how to map the Norwegian situation on the existing tagging schemes in OSM, or even a translation problem. Should be solvable, as keys and values are after all only arbitrary strings in OSM. Any meaning of the strings is to help the mapper, but is not essential to the way the data works.<br></div></div></div>