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<p>I agree in the observation that some people just tag anything old
as <font face="monospace">historic</font>, even just shops that
have closed (now, I don't know - maybe those specific shops played
a vital role in the community). And it might also be due to
language barriers, I don't know how the editors present in other
languages, I'm just saying.</p>
<p>Anyway, I've been thinking about criteria for the <font
face="monospace">historic </font>key, and I think it would go
somewhat similar to the relevancy requirements on Wikipedia (not
that I always agree with those):<br>
</p>
<p>The feature should be of local, regional, national or
international relevance from a historic viewpoint, proven by them
<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li>having a plaque on them about the specific feature or a plaque
showing they're heritage (see images below)<br>
</li>
<li>being part of a heritage trail</li>
<li>being on some sort of locally produced heritage map on paper/
online or on <font face="monospace">tourism=information</font><br>
</li>
<li>being on a local, national or international heritage register</li>
<li>having something scholarly published about them</li>
<li>being part of a larger group of features which have been
acknowledged as being historic without this specific one being
written about (church, creamery, smithy, school); this often
applies to disused or re-used amenity buildings</li>
<li>primary source for historic research (graveyards, memorials)</li>
<li>(having a wikidata item. But things might be more likely to be
on OSM than having a wikidata item. Maybe wikipedia page is
easier)<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>
I'm personally not happy about the wayside crosses and shrines
being part of the <font face="monospace">historic </font>group,
but I have no alternative idea. <br>
</p>
<p>It also needs to be made clear that the values following the
historic key need to be in English and not be the proper name or
description of the feature. I've been doing a lot of work
translating many of the values and subsequently re-tagging in the
last couple of weeks.</p>
<p>I also noticed that the <font face="monospace">inscription</font>
key is used a lot where it should be <font face="monospace">description</font>.
I think that's the "fault" of the iD editor form for historic
features. The <font face="monospace">inscription</font> field
only makes sense for memorials IMHO.</p>
<p><img alt="File:Fógra (notice), Tory Island - geograph.org.uk -
2492988.jpg"
src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/F%C3%B3gra_%28notice%29%2C_Tory_Island_-_geograph.org.uk_-_2492988.jpg/450px-F%C3%B3gra_%28notice%29%2C_Tory_Island_-_geograph.org.uk_-_2492988.jpg?20210819090904"
data-file-width="1567" data-file-height="2089" width="345"
height="460"></p>
<p>Notice on national monument in Ireland <br>
</p>
<p><img
src="https://emailschildershop.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Denkmalschilder-Denkmalschutz.jpg"
alt="https://emailschildershop.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Denkmalschilder-Denkmalschutz.jpg"></p>
<p>Sign (also available as metal plaques) in Germany for national
monuments<br>
</p>
<p>Anne<br>
</p>
<p></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/11/2022 07:17, Warin wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:dbd4c55a-7609-0e64-a03d-ef43d6577f9b@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/11/22 00:20, Volker Schmidt
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALQ-OR6XkLT=4rC++jVzytf5VtV7ugmth=EGEsfPJXntYcBR9A@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">I think the best way out is to think detached
from the meaning of the strings of characters we use for
tagging.
<div dir="auto">Let's document that we have have certain
values for the key "historic" that describe objects that are
not historic, and not even old. </div>
<div dir="auto">After all the purpose of the wiki is to
describe the tagging as is, not as it should be an ideal
tagging system.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Disagree.</p>
<p>Pedantic hat on: This way we end up with colour=black for the
colour white. And colour=clam for some aesthetic judgement of
the colour.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>We voting on the key/tag, as proposed not the past use (misuse)
of the key. <br>
</p>
<p>If people want to tag 'old' things with the key 'old' .. I
would rather they use the tag start_date=* as that would have
more information. <br>
</p>
<p>A 30 year old may think something 50 years 'old' is 'old', an
80 year 'old' probably would not think that is 'old'. Some will
conclude that "old' is too subjective to tag within OSM ... </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Future example: cloths lines. <br>
</p>
<p>There are 4 possible key values - two of them exist in OSM ...
one of them I 'like' because I have been using it since
childhood. That does not mean that any of the 4 values is
'wrong' .. the question should be what makes the most sense for
most people, failing that what is easiest to meaningfully
translate into other languages (note the trailing s!). Still
thinking about that. <br>
</p>
<p>Using a tag for things other than the common meaning of that
word (or word group) is simply confusing and should be avoided.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALQ-OR6XkLT=4rC++jVzytf5VtV7ugmth=EGEsfPJXntYcBR9A@mail.gmail.com"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 3 Nov 2022, 14:05
Brian M. Sperlongano, <<a
href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">The main issue I have with this proposal is
that there is a longstanding controversy regarding the
historic key. Namely, the question of whether it is used
for things that are historic or merely old. I don't see
how a proposal centered around this key can move forward
with that fundamental debate unaddressed.</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 3, 2022,
8:56 AM Anne-Karoline Distel <<a
href="mailto:annekadistel@web.de" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">annekadistel@web.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thanks
for pointing that out, I've closed the vote again, and
will open<br>
again tomorrow. I don't know if that it the procedure
when you correct<br>
an oversight on the proposal page.<br>
<br>
Anne<br>
<br>
On 03/11/2022 12:16, Daniel Capilla wrote:<br>
> Please,<br>
><br>
> Check the wiki talk page of this proposal before
opening the voting<br>
> time. Some issues are not cleared resolved.<br>
><br>
> Thank you.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
><br>
> Daniel Capilla<br>
><br>
><br>
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