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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>Van:</b> tagging-request@openstreetmap.org <tagging-request@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> zondag 11 juni 2023 01:08<br>
<b>Aan:</b> tagging@openstreetmap.org <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> Tagging Digest, Vol 165, Issue 8</font>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. road accident memorials (Anne-Karoline Distel)<br>
2. Re: road accident memorials (Martin Koppenhoefer)<br>
3. Re: road accident memorials (Anne-Karoline Distel)<br>
4. Re: road accident memorials (Greg Troxel)<br>
5. Re: road accident memorials (Anne-Karoline Distel)<br>
6. Re: road accident memorials (Marc_marc)<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 15:40:46 +0100<br>
From: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de><br>
To: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
Subject: [Tagging] road accident memorials<br>
Message-ID: <63f2b3c0-f333-8a90-6870-6ed24ab313ec@web.de><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
I would like to be able to differentiate memorials for road traffic<br>
accidents from other memorials along a road, because I'd really like to<br>
know how many there are. Sometimes, it will be difficult to say without<br>
local knowledge whether it was that or maybe if the family uses<br>
"accident" as a euphemism for suicide, of course. I don't know if<br>
wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for example, which<br>
IMHO it shouldn't be.<br>
<br>
On a side note, I'd also like to tag memorials for pets different than<br>
for events and people. They're not terribly common in public places, but<br>
I just mapped this one: <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10967549672" data-auth="NotApplicable" fg_scanned="1">
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10967549672</a><br>
and there are two in the Army Barracks in Kilkenny for dogs as well (one<br>
not mapped yet, because it's fairly new).<br>
<br>
I can't find anything for "pet" or "accident" on taginfo.<br>
<br>
Anne<br>
<br>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">Hi Anne,<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">There are several problems/remarks for making such memorials visible or viewable on a roadside.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">Traffic is too busy to spend or giving attention time to memorials while driving along.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">The old memorials would just be visible by walkers.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">The long grasses make a cover for the memorials.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">The mourning families stated that they want a warning alongside the road to prevent more death its contra dictional, a memorial on a cemetery would do as well.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">You’ll never be able to read nor understand when driving or passing by the memorial.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">And above all, they are / should be temporarily by permissive rules. Without permission to visit along the roadside, it attrack’s to much attention,a
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </span>gathering on the banks alongside the road.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">Who’s is keeping up with the none excysting ones ?<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1" lang="EN-CA">Just like flowerbeds are there a fortnight as being on farmland, the product are bulbs and they grow best without flowers on top.<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1"> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1">Greetz<o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1">
<br class="ContentPasted1">
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0"><o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1">Ps and what; if the accident was between a crossing tree and a motor vehicle ? Just suicide, youll never know ?<br class="ContentPasted1">
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;margin-bottom:0cm">
<span style="font-size: 12pt; color: black;" class="ContentPasted0"><o:p class="ContentPasted0 ContentPasted1">So it is mappable but should we want it ?</o:p></span></p>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:01:17 +0200<br>
From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist@gmail.com><br>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"<br>
<tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials<br>
Message-ID: <604202B5-7B1D-467E-AEA1-0713E4857AE2@gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
sent from a phone<br>
<br>
> On 10 Jun 2023, at 17:58, Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> I don't know if<br>
> wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for example, which<br>
> IMHO it shouldn't be<br>
<br>
<br>
agreed. One tag I am aware of in this context is memorial=ghost_bike<br>
<a href="https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/memorial=ghost_bike#overview" data-auth="NotApplicable" fg_scanned="1">https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/memorial=ghost_bike#overview</a><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 20:53:07 +0100<br>
From: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de><br>
To: Greg Troxel <gdt@lexort.com><br>
Cc: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials<br>
Message-ID: <ad263361-c79f-1d80-fca9-88e4e2d3a075@web.de><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 10/06/2023 20:33, Greg Troxel wrote:<br>
> Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de> writes:<br>
><br>
>> I would like to be able to differentiate memorials for road traffic<br>
>> accidents from other memorials along a road, because I'd really like to<br>
>> know how many there are. Sometimes, it will be difficult to say without<br>
>> local knowledge whether it was that or maybe if the family uses<br>
>> "accident" as a euphemism for suicide, of course.<br>
> In general I don't think it's possible to separate "accident" from<br>
> "suicide" fully for "motor vehicle crashes", just as it isn't possible<br>
> to separate "overdose" from "suicide" for opiod deaths.<br>
><br>
> I think OSM has to tag what is, and not evaluate things that can't<br>
> really be evaluated. In the northeast US, you find crosses along the<br>
> road, often simple white wood that do not necessarily endure more than a<br>
> year or so, and occasional metal permanent ones. And, often a cross<br>
> with flowers that is there for 1 to several months - the same thing, but<br>
> sometimes too brief to end up mapped (not because it shouldn't be, just<br>
> because it has to last long enough for someone who maps these to notice<br>
> and get to it).<br>
I would say that memorial:cause=traffic_accident would leave the options<br>
open whether the victim intended to die or not.<br>
><br>
>> I don't know if wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for<br>
>> example, which IMHO it shouldn't be.<br>
> I don't follow. If there is a cross by the road, are you saying that<br>
> depending on the beliefs of the people that put it up about cause, then<br>
> it should or shouldn't be tagged wayside_cross?<br>
<br>
A historic=wayside_cross does not mark the spot; it is not left in a<br>
location where someone is buried or died. It is a way to make sure the<br>
soul of the deceased gets into heaven easier by having passers by pray<br>
for the soul. You don't have to believe in it, but that's what people<br>
believed back then (and maybe some still do). I didn't grow up with this<br>
practise, but this is what Catholic people did in Early Modern Ireland.<br>
Not every cross by the wayside is a wayside cross. Like so many things<br>
in the historic category, the tagging is a bit messy. Some examples in<br>
my area: <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq" data-auth="NotApplicable" fg_scanned="1">
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq</a><br>
<br>
I guess I have a topic for a new video... There are a couple more<br>
surviving in County Kilkenny, but I want to keep some work for the video.<br>
<br>
Anne<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 15:57:40 -0400<br>
From: Greg Troxel <gdt@lexort.com><br>
To: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de><br>
Cc: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials<br>
Message-ID: <rmipm63145n.fsf@s1.lexort.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain<br>
<br>
Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de> writes:<br>
<br>
> I would say that memorial:cause=traffic_accident would leave the options<br>
> open whether the victim intended to die or not.<br>
<br>
OK but IMHO traffic_crash is better. 'accident' is an assertion of no<br>
blame, and there are messy issues of bad luck and negligence. crash is<br>
objectively what happened.<br>
<br>
>>> I don't know if wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for<br>
>>> example, which IMHO it shouldn't be.<br>
>> I don't follow. If there is a cross by the road, are you saying that<br>
>> depending on the beliefs of the people that put it up about cause, then<br>
>> it should or shouldn't be tagged wayside_cross?<br>
><br>
> A historic=wayside_cross does not mark the spot; it is not left in a<br>
> location where someone is buried or died. It is a way to make sure the<br>
> soul of the deceased gets into heaven easier by having passers by pray<br>
> for the soul. You don't have to believe in it, but that's what people<br>
> believed back then (and maybe some still do). I didn't grow up with this<br>
> practise, but this is what Catholic people did in Early Modern Ireland.<br>
> Not every cross by the wayside is a wayside cross. Like so many things<br>
> in the historic category, the tagging is a bit messy. Some examples in<br>
> my area: <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq" data-auth="NotApplicable" fg_scanned="1">
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq</a><br>
><br>
> I guess I have a topic for a new video... There are a couple more<br>
> surviving in County Kilkenny, but I want to keep some work for the video.<br>
<br>
I see; that's different. In the US, one typically finds crosses by the<br>
road where presumably the crash occured and nobody thinks it is<br>
necessarily the location of death. But again, do these have labels?<br>
How do you tell? Definitely a good thing to explain to everyone.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2023 21:49:24 +0100<br>
From: Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de><br>
To: Greg Troxel <gdt@lexort.com><br>
Cc: OSM Tagging <tagging@openstreetmap.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials<br>
Message-ID: <d1bf9994-e34c-0245-103d-42675596fbaa@web.de><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/06/2023 20:57, Greg Troxel wrote:<br>
> Anne-Karoline Distel <annekadistel@web.de> writes:<br>
><br>
>> I would say that memorial:cause=traffic_accident would leave the options<br>
>> open whether the victim intended to die or not.<br>
> OK but IMHO traffic_crash is better. 'accident' is an assertion of no<br>
> blame, and there are messy issues of bad luck and negligence. crash is<br>
> objectively what happened.<br>
Very true.<br>
><br>
>>>> I don't know if wayside_cross is used for this in some instances, for<br>
>>>> example, which IMHO it shouldn't be.<br>
>>> I don't follow. If there is a cross by the road, are you saying that<br>
>>> depending on the beliefs of the people that put it up about cause, then<br>
>>> it should or shouldn't be tagged wayside_cross?<br>
>> A historic=wayside_cross does not mark the spot; it is not left in a<br>
>> location where someone is buried or died. It is a way to make sure the<br>
>> soul of the deceased gets into heaven easier by having passers by pray<br>
>> for the soul. You don't have to believe in it, but that's what people<br>
>> believed back then (and maybe some still do). I didn't grow up with this<br>
>> practise, but this is what Catholic people did in Early Modern Ireland.<br>
>> Not every cross by the wayside is a wayside cross. Like so many things<br>
>> in the historic category, the tagging is a bit messy. Some examples in<br>
>> my area: <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq" data-auth="NotApplicable" fg_scanned="1">
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vVq</a><br>
>><br>
>> I guess I have a topic for a new video... There are a couple more<br>
>> surviving in County Kilkenny, but I want to keep some work for the video.<br>
> I see; that's different. In the US, one typically finds crosses by the<br>
> road where presumably the crash occured and nobody thinks it is<br>
> necessarily the location of death. But again, do these have labels?<br>
> How do you tell? Definitely a good thing to explain to everyone.<br>
<br>
We have loads of those as well, but they should be differentiated from<br>
modern cross shape memorials which do "mark the spot". And not all<br>
memorials for crashes/ accidents are cross shaped:<br>
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8243154427" data-auth="NotApplicable" fg_scanned="1">https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8243154427</a><br>
<br>
Anne<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 00:50:59 +0200<br>
From: Marc_marc <marc_marc@mailo.com><br>
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] road accident memorials<br>
Message-ID: <c707a503-2c86-1646-7125-b722b4ef055c@mailo.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Le 10.06.23 ? 16:40, Anne-Karoline Distel a ?crit?:<br>
> I would like to be able to differentiate memorials for road traffic<br>
> accidents from other memorials along a road<br>
<br>
memorial:conflict=road_accident<br>
<br>
> On a side note, I'd also like to tag memorials for pets different than<br>
> for events and people.<br>
<br>
subject=*<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
MArc<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of Tagging Digest, Vol 165, Issue 8<br>
***************************************<br>
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