<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><br><br><div dir="ltr">sent from a phone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 23 Jun 2023, at 16:13, Greg Troxel <gdt@lexort.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"> My point is that a tag defines a semantic concept and that we should strive to have it mean that concept everywhere. That is the point, so that data consumers can use it.</div></blockquote><br><div><br></div><div>agreed. The problems for example arise because sometimes essential things are not explicitly defined as people take them for granted (the definitions are just more English words), and then it turns out, different properties have been taken for granted or not be considered.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Let’s have a look at basic concepts that occur around the world, e.g. food provision. If you don’t produce your own food, or go foraging, hunting or fishing, you’ll have to buy it. Generic food buying places in osm are markets and street vendors (let’s ignore the latter for this time as they don’t occur everywhere), convenience stores and supermarkets. The market term is a huge umbrella and can accommodate lots of different kinds of places (if you look into more detail than just “market”) so we won’t have a problem at this level of specificity, but defining a semantic difference of convenience store and supermarket regardless of local customs seems impossible.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The wiki says for convenience store:</div><div>“<span style="caret-color: rgb(37, 37, 37); color: rgb(37, 37, 37); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> A convenience shop is a small local shop carrying a variety of everyday products, such as packaged food and hygiene products”</span></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(37, 37, 37); color: rgb(37, 37, 37); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></span></div><div><span style="caret-color: rgb(37, 37, 37); color: rgb(37, 37, 37); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">While this might seem a good description of a convenience store, it still isn’t a real definition that would exclude all other shops that aren’t. it doesn’t say there must be food, e.g. a shop selling clothing, hygiene products and newspapers would also fit.</span></div><div><br></div><div>There is also a longer text, full definition says: “<span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> A</span><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> </span><b style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">convenience shop</b><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">, also known as a</span><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> </span><b style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">convenience store</b><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> </span><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">or</span><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> </span><b style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">mini-mart</b><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">: A small local shop carrying a variety of everyday products, mostly including single-serving food items such as milk, bread, snacks, groceries to over-the-counter medications, household items, stationery, and small auto supplies such as fuses.</span><span style="caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"> </span></div><p style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;">They may be part of a chain - 7-Eleven (US, Japan, Europe, Australia) and AM/PM, Wawa (US) - or locally owned. In the USA, they're also sometimes referred to as a <b>bodega</b> or a <b>corner store</b>.”</p><p style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;"><br></p><p style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;"><br></p><p style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;">This is not a definition (and not an exception, I bet the tag definition for “building” says it is about a building but does not exactly define what a building is). You can not decide whether a shop is a convenience shop with these descriptions, rather you have to know what a convenience shop is in order to use it correctly.</p><p style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;">For example the first paragraph says: mostly including …small auto supplies such as fuses. - I am willing to believe this is the case somewhere, but I have never seen a convenience store selling auto supplies, should I never have used the tag then? Or is it just an example and it is fine when auto supplies are missing, or single serving milk? What is required as a minimum, what is indispensable? Could this be defined with semantics for a global application? </p><p style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(32, 33, 34); color: rgb(32, 33, 34); font-family: sans-serif;">Yes, we should strive to clearly define semantic concepts, but we are often very far, we do things by local accustoms and agreements and common (hopefully, mostly/often) understanding of single words we use as tag names, in English ;-)</p></body></html>