<div dir="ltr"><div>I tend not to think too much about the "amenity" key, to me amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter is very clear this is a non-man made, natural feature.</div><div><br></div><div>A rock overhang is used as a form of shelter and the type of shelter is made clear by shelter_type.</div><div><br></div><div>The wiki is very clear in this regard how these rock overhangs should be tagged.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shelter_type%3Drock_shelter">https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=shelter_type%3Drock_shelter</a> has almost 500 instances so it's well established now. Given this current usage in OSM, I'm in favour of not inventing a new tag for this, and aligning with what's already documented and established.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 09:09, Warin <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802moz-cite-prefix">I object. <br>
amenity=shelter I see as a man made object, some with better
shelter than others. <br>
I think these should remain in the 'natural key space, possibly
natural=overhang? <br>
<br>
But then what do I know??? <br>
<br>
amenity=shelter has <br>
<tt dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802mw-content-ltr" style="background:rgb(238,238,255);font-size:1em;line-height:1.6"><u></u><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type" title="Key:shelter type" target="_blank">shelter_type</a><u></u>=<u></u>rock_shelter<u></u></tt>
- A rock shelter is a shallow cave-like opening at the base of a
bluff or cliff<br>
<br>
and that looks to fit perfectly! <br>
<br>
I'd not tag them as camp sites, let people evaluate them and the
surrounds themselves for camping rather than suggest a place. <br>
<br>
<br>
On 01/04/19 08:39, Andrew Harvey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;line-height:inherit"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">>
when (how deep) does a rock overhang / shelter
become an actual cave? :-)</span></font></p>
<div>Some judgement is needed, but the ones I've seen are
pretty clear cut as being one or the other.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p style="margin:0.5em 0px;line-height:inherit;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dshelter" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dshelter</a> just
says "A <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelter_%28building%29" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802extiw" title="wikipedia:Shelter (building)" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(102,51,102);background:none" target="_blank">shelter</a> is small place to
protect against bad weather conditions." which is mostly
what these overhangs are used for, so I think it's the
appropriate tag. If that shelter is frequently used as a
camp site (now, not just historically) then can be
tagged tourism=camp_site with a few extra tags from <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism=camp_site" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism=camp_site</a> to
help distinguish this small camp site from the larger
ones.</p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">Is
"not meant for sleeping, no cooking or heating
equipement inside" supposed to be a criteria for a
shelter?</span></font></div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">I
would say no. We should tag the rock overhang for what
it is, and use tourism=camp_site to say if it's
commonly used for sleeping too.</span></font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 1 Apr 2019 at 08:07,
Graeme Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:graemefitz1@gmail.com" target="_blank">graemefitz1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at
18:14, Andrew Harvey <<a href="mailto:andrew.harvey4@gmail.com" target="_blank">andrew.harvey4@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Rock overhangs (rock shelters) have
been quite extensively mistagged in Australia as
natural=cave_entrance.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Are there any objections to re-tagging these
overhangs tagged as natural=cave_entrance to
amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No real objection, Andrew, but when (how deep) does a
rock overhang / shelter become an actual cave? :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also noticed in the discussion comments on </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Can
you look if this could be tagged as a shelter ?</span><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> </span><a rel="nofollow" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757external gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail-free" href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Champlitte,_%C3%A9craigne.jpg" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:initial;text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(102,51,102);padding-right:13px" target="_blank">http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Champlitte,_%C3%A9craigne.jpg</a><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> </span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tounoki&action=edit&redlink=1" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail-new" title="User:Tounoki (page does not exist)" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;background:none;text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(165,88,88)" target="_blank">Tounoki</a><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> </span><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">(</span><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tounoki&action=edit&redlink=1" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail-new" title="User talk:Tounoki (page does not exist)" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;background:none;text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(165,88,88)" target="_blank">talk</a><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">) 14:16,
21 April 2013 (UTC)</span></div>
<dl style="margin-top:0.2em;margin-bottom:0.5em;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">
<dd style="margin-left:1.6em;margin-bottom:0.1em;margin-right:0px">If
it is open to the public, not meant for sleeping, no
cooking or heating equipement inside, then yes, you
could use <tt dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail-mw-content-ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity" title="Key:amenity" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">amenity</a>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dshelter" title="Tag:amenity=shelter" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">shelter</a></tt> +<tt dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail-mw-content-ltr" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:1em;direction:ltr;background:rgb(238,238,255);line-height:1.6"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter" title="Key:shelter" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background:none" target="_blank">shelter</a>=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:shelter%3Dweather_shelter&action=edit&redlink=1" class="gmail-m_-2937585653175647802gmail-m_1561704519190141757gmail-new" title="Tag:shelter=weather shelter (page does not
exist)" style="color:rgb(165,88,88);background:none" target="_blank">weather_shelter </a>"</tt></dd>
</dl>
<div>Is "<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">not
meant for sleeping, no cooking or heating equipement
inside" supposed to be a criteria for a shelter?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Some
of the overhangs I've seen are pitch black underneath
from many thousands of years of cooking fires, &
are acknowledged as places that Aboriginal peoples
camped during bad weather - does that mean they're not
shelters? (although I don't know what else they would
then be?)</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
<div>Thanks
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Graeme</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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