<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">Hi everyone, I’m very new to OSM so can’t comment on the technicalities but to add some data to the question of frequency of usage, the Strava heat map shows that the M1 and M2 are among the most frequently ridden roads in Sydney, by those cyclists who log their tracks in Strava. A biased subset of cyclists to be sure, but the heat map does provide unambiguous data on usage and the motorways definitely get used a lot. See here... (you have to log in to Strava to see closeup images).</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.strava.com/heatmap#11.94/151.13897/-33.87583/hot/ride">https://www.strava.com/heatmap#11.94/151.13897/-33.87583/hot/ride</a></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best wishes Ian</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 13 Apr 2020, at 9:07 pm, Warin <61sundowner@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I have bicycled on the M2. I much
prefer it the the alternative that has a lot of up and down,
dangerous cross streets where some drivers assume right of way
over bicycles and a less direct route. There are people who
commute to and from work on it, if there were a convenient safer
route they would use that instead. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/4/20 8:01 pm, Andrew Harvey
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAD5Vjsuy68=oFJSoxv81mrKni2Bv3OLGJ9Bj3nGmLFDZPnW57A@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">I think it's a fair argument to say it's not an
actual route (but still designated bicycle infrastructure since
it's signposted), I can see arguments both ways. <br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 19:27,
Dongchen Yue <<a href="mailto:yuedongchenyy@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">yuedongchenyy@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">It’s certainly true
that some people rely on motorway routes (I agree that the
solution for family-friendly routes would be a different
renderer, until conditions change in Australia). However,
regarding the bike symbol on the M2 on the Mapillary
example, it’s designed to be a sign of caution instead of a
route guide (<a href="https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/business-industry/partners-and-suppliers/lgr/cycling-aspects-of-austroads-guides.pdf</a>).<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The document is 177 pages long... which page? <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Some bicycle signs are to caution motor vehicle operators as to
the presence of bicycles, not to caution the bicycle rider. </p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAD5Vjsuy68=oFJSoxv81mrKni2Bv3OLGJ9Bj3nGmLFDZPnW57A@mail.gmail.com">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Am 13.04.2020 um 7:21 PM schrieb Andrew Harvey <<a href="mailto:andrew.harvey4@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">andrew.harvey4@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Example of a dedicated bicycle crossing
on a motorway entry ramp on the M2 in Sydney <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3HCnt9rSnC2Z9OLn0GSslA</a>
and on the M7 in Sydney <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/JGrFtWbs5DYbMywYpVetoA</a>.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The M7 Shared Path is is a completely different
thing, it's a shared path and off road, but as you
can see above on the M7 motorway itself there is
clearly dedicated bicycle signage and
infrastructure.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Who says it's not recommended to cycle on the
motorway? I've never seen a sign to say this.
Whether it's common or not is irrelevant we mostly
map the infrastructure on the ground not the
traffic level of the road. </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 13 Apr
2020 at 19:11, Dongchen Yue <<a href="mailto:yuedongchenyy@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">yuedongchenyy@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>The most noticeable example in Sydney would
be the M7 Shared Path (<a href="https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.westlinkm7.com.au/about/shared-path</a>),
which is a ~40km uninterrupted bi-directional
path alongside the M7 Motorway with normally
(though obviously not currently) very high usage
for recreational cycling. However, although
cycling on the motorway shoulders is neither
recommended nor common, it’s been mapped on OSM
as the cycle route „M7s" (<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767&layers=C" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-33.83065/150.85767&layers=C</a>)
along with the „M7 Cycleway“ route.<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Am 13.04.2020 um 6:52 PM schrieb Ewen
Hill <<a href="mailto:ewen.hill@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ewen.hill@gmail.com</a>>:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Hi Dongchen,
<div> Can you provide a couple of
examples please so we can review and
discuss them. There may be good
reasons (the red carpet Gardiners
Creek cycle path in Melbourne hangs
under the freeway might appear
incorrect but is not). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Ewen</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Mon, 13 Apr 2020 at 18:20, Dongchen
Yue <<a href="mailto:yuedongchenyy@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">yuedongchenyy@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">Hi
all,</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">I’ve
noticed many motorway shoulders
in Australia (especially in
Sydney) being mapped as cycle
routes on OSM. Although this
seems to be a common approach
for motorways/other high-speed
roads in Australia of which
cycling is allowed on, I can
hardly imagine it to be of any
practical use (i.e. providing
convenient and safe connections
for people cycling).</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">Foremostly,
this mapping approach defies the
general purpose of cycle routes
(both from an engineering
perspective and the official OSM
Wiki), that is, guiding people
onto safe & convenient ways.
Although cycling on most
motorway shoulders in Australia
is technically permitted and
commonly done by the very few
“strong and fearless” people
(only ~1%, as indicated in past
transport research), it’s both
subjectively and statically
quite unsafe, which gives no use
to most people when rendered on
tiles such as OpenCycleMap.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">Also,
these mapped motorway/high-speed
road routes aren’t officially
endorsed routes whatsoever, and
are always referred to as
separate pieces of
infrastructure (e.g. “…
cycleway”) by cycle-lobbying
groups.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">Afterall,
these “routes” probably
shouldn’t be mapped at all,
since they aren’t much use to
most people; tagging them with
‘cycling’: ‘designated’ and
‘cycleway’: ‘shoulder’ would be
sufficient enough. What do you
think of this solution?</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">Thanks
in advance,</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica
Neue";color:rgb(26,26,26)"><span style="font-kerning:none">Dongchen
Yue</span></div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Warm Regards<br>
<br>
Ewen Hill<br>
Internet Development Australia<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
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