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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>For the Australian Tagging Guidelines can I suggest the following text as point 4 under bushwalking and Cycling Tracks Notes….<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>4. Caution should be exercised if considering mapping of ‘tracks, routes and pads’ in remote reserves, as they may well be covered by management plans, standards or regulations which seek to minimise publicity. Such regulations or standards (AS2156) may request that the location of such ‘tracks’ are not publicised on maps. You should seek clarification from the managing authority prior to adding such tracks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Cheers - Phil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Little Maps <mapslittle@gmail.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 23 October 2020 9:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> OSM Aust Discussion List <Talk-au@openstreetmap.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [talk-au] Mapping "off track" hiking routes<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi folks, thanks for a very interesting discussion. It was great to hear from people who don’t often pipe up on the forum. Whilst it started off informative and insightful, it didn’t take long to reach into rhetoric about Russia and guns/maps don’t kill people ... neither of which is particularly helpful.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The original issue is clearly very important, so can I ask a much more basic question.... what text should we add to the Australian Tagging Guidelines, which give no guidance on the matter? The proportion of mappers who read the guidelines may be small but must be much larger than those who read this listserve. If the outcome of this discussion isn’t consolidated I for one would see this a somewhat wasted opportunity.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best wishes Ian<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On 23 Oct 2020, at 9:12 pm, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>23 Oct 2020, 11:59 by <a href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au">forster@ozonline.com.au</a>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>A licence condition for data users is that they have a public policy for the Don'tRender tag<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>'That is fortunately impossible' why is it impossible?<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Technically it is possible but it would require license<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>change that would be problematic<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>both from legal viewpoint (making such rule effective<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>would be tricky at best)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>and unlikely to be accepted by osm community.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It is not impossible as in "can be established<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>with math proof to be illogically and therefore impossible"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>but impossible as in "I will stop conflict in<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Middle East by posting on Twitter'.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>'Note that deleting existing paths with "I do not want them rendered" is not an acceptable edit'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I don't think anybody suggested it was.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>This "solution" regularly appears in such<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>topics about illegal or unwanted paths.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>'Russia does not get to decide whatever their military bases can be mapped and rendered in OSM.'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nobody said that Russia should should be able to<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>It was just proposed that owners or operator <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>of an area would be able to suppress <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>rendering of objects there.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Its a point for discussion. What do you think should happen?<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paths existing but illegal to use should<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>be marked and tagged with access tags.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Path destroyed should be deleted from OSM.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paths but existing should not be mapped in OSM.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Why single out Russia?<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>AFAIK they have laws forbidding mapping<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>locations of military bases.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>PS thanks Steve for your second email.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>thanks Phil for your clarification on 'illegal'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Tony<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Oct 23, 2020, 10:18 by <a href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au">forster@ozonline.com.au</a>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>I am not morally responsible if an ex partner kills a woman in a women's refuge, he is, but I won't knowingly contribute to the process. And it doesn't wash with me to say they should put a guard at the door because I have mapped a refuge.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Not mapping ones that are private and not signed falls under not mapping private info.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>See <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Limitations_on_mapping_private_information">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Limitations_on_mapping_private_information</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>for an attempt to gather consensus opinion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Re access=no, if I recollect correctly they still display in OSM, only slightly more red.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>This changed, now they display greish (less prominent)<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You probably wouldn't notice. I haven't checked data users such as Osmand and Strava.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Any decent router will not route over them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Graeme<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks for your thoughts on 'how to'. I have given it some thought and don't have any really good answers. Please think of a better scheme.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I mentioned a Don'tRender=yes tag but worry it may be too complicated for the benefit that results but here goes:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>a land owner or manager can add a Don'tRender=yes tag<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>OSM.org map would honour the tag in map mode<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>This is a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>A licence condition for data users is that they have a public policy for the Don'tRender tag<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>That is fortunately impossible.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>By having the item visible at edit time it eliminates the cycle of addition and deletion and edit wars.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>You can do that by mapping line and tagging it with note.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Note that deleting existing paths with "I do not want them rendered" is not an acceptable edit.<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Let the mapping community decide whether the claim to be a land owner or manager is credible, if two organisations have credible claim to that then Don'tRender=disputed<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal>Russia does not get to decide whatever their military bases can be mapped and rendered in OSM.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I knowingly and deliberately violated<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>by mapping objects in China.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>_____________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>see <a href="http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning">http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-au mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>