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I don't map much in the US but do in Australia and Sweden. In both
countries, I have rarely come across what I consider to be gravel
roads, instead consider most unpaved roads and tracks to be 'dirt'
or 'compacted':<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:surface%3Dcompacted">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:surface%3Dcompacted</a><br>
<br>
Apropos the current discussion, I wonder what other mappers think?
Especially if you have any road engineering background in Australia.
I'd like to fall in with a consensus.<br>
<br>
Background: I mostly look at tracks/roads as a cyclist. If my tyre
is mostly resting on small stones of various sizes, then it is
gravel and riding is generally tough with tendency to skitter. If
my tyre is resting mostly on (often rollered) dirt with usually
embedded very small stones for cohesion and traction, then I am on
a compacted surface and riding is much easier. Here in Sweden,
almost all unpaved public and residential roads are the latter as
are many logging and farm tracks. A half-decent compacted surface
can often be car driven at 70 kmph, not something I'd fancy on a
gravel road.<br>
<br>
I could have sworn there was a good Wikipedia page on compacted road
surfaces but I cannot find it now or anything similar, perhaps
called something else. It is a deliberate technique that goes back
to Roman times, (perhaps there are some in Waga Waga :-) ).<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-02-23 07:22, Josh Marshall
wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CAJu5bfi+Y+rEj=fA848spx_7R7sRAgvnvhAAFZTetm0XRP3O2Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The approved OSM tag for <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">surface=gravel</a> refers
to railway ballast, not the fine crushed rock or natural
surface that usually occurs on unpaved roads in Australia.
However we call the fine unpaved surface "gravel" in common
parlance, and many unpaved roads that don't constitute
gravel as described in the OSM wiki have been tagged as
gravel here, erroneously depending on your point of view.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a matter of interest to me too. I spend a
substantial amount of time running+riding on fire trails in
NSW (all highway=track), and the surface type is useful and
indeed used in a number of the route planners I use. I have
changed a few roads back to 'unpaved' from 'gravel' due to
the rule of following the description in the surface=
guidelines rather than the name. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My question then however, is exactly what to tag the
tracks beyond "unpaved".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are definitely sections that are somewhat regularly
graded and appear to have extra aggregate/fine gravel added.
From the surface= wiki, these most closely align with
surface=compacted. But fine_gravel is potentially an option
too. Many of these are 2wd accessible when it is dry.
(Typically smoothness=bad.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are also others, usually less travelled, which are
bare rock, clay, dirt, sand, whatever was there. Is it best
just to leave these as surface=unpaved, and add a
smoothness=very_bad or horrible tag? None of the surface=
tags really seem to apply.</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 16:45,
Little Maps <<a href="mailto:mapslittle@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mapslittle@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> <span></span>Hi Brian and co, in Victoria and
southern NSW where I've edited a lot of roads, highway=track
is nearly totally confined to dirt roads in forested areas,
as described in the Aus tagging guidelines, viz: "
highway=track Gravel fire trails, forest drives, 4WD trails
and similar roads. Gravel roads connecting towns etc. should
be tagged as appropriate (secondary, tertiary or
unclassified), along with the surface=unpaved or more
specific surface=* tag."<br>
<br>
<div>In your US-chat someone wrote, "...in the USA, "most"
roads that "most" people encounter (around here, in my
experience, YMMV...) are surface=paved. Gravel or dirt
roads are certainly found, but they are less and less
common." By contrast, in regional Australia, most small
roads are unpaved/dirt/gravel. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In SE Australia, public roads in agricultural areas
that are unpaved/dirt/gravel/etc are usually tagged as
highway=unclassified (or tertiary etc), not highway=track.
There are some exceptions in some small regions (for
example in the Rutherglen area in NE Victoria) where
really poor, rough 'double track' tracks on public road
easements have systematically been tagged with
highway=track rather than highway=unclassified. See here
for example: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-36.1424/146.3683"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-36.1424/146.3683
</a>. However, this is not the norm in SE Australia and
across the border in southern NSW, this type of road is
nearly always tagged as unclassified, as it is elsewhere
in Victoria. In SE Australia, my experience is that tracks
are tagged in the more traditional way, and not as has
been done in the USA. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I could ask you a related question, what do you US
mappers call "gravel"? The approved OSM tag for <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">surface=gravel</a>
refers to railway ballast, not the fine crushed rock or
natural surface that usually occurs on unpaved roads in
Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface
"gravel" in common parlance, and many unpaved roads that
don't constitute gravel as described in the OSM wiki have
been tagged as gravel here, erroneously depending on your
point of view. How do you use the surface=gravel tag in
the USA? Cheers Ian</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at
2:49 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <<a
href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hello all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Recently, there was a discussion on the talk-us
list regarding how we use the tag highway=track. That
discussion begins here:</div>
<div>
<div><a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2021-February/020878.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2021-February/020878.html</a><br>
<br>
During that discussion, someone suggested that
Australian mappers may also be using the
highway=track tag in a similar way to US mappers.
Hence this message :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've recently made edits to the wiki page for
highway=track describing how the tag is used in the
USA:</div>
<div><br>
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack#Usage_in_the_United_States"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack#Usage_in_the_United_States</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>If there is similarly a local variation in how
this tag is used, I would encourage the Australian
community to document their usage as well. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian Sperlongano</div>
<div>Rhode Island, USA</div>
</div>
</div>
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