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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 23/2/21 8:44 pm, Little Maps wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D24B5E33-314C-45E2-8583-8F79EE5A5746@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Josh and co, I ride a “gravel bike” on dirt
roads that are signposted as “gravel road”but definitely don’t
fit the OSM definition of gravel = railway ballast. Because of
the common usage of gravel as a variably textured dirt road in
Australia, we face a massive uphill battle to get accurate,
specific unpaved road surfaces in OSM. Here’s some data from
Overpass Turbo queries of all unpaved highway surfaces in
Victoria. This includes all highway tags (inc roads and paths)
not just tracks:</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<table style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto; border-collapse: collapse; width: 251pt;" width="335">
<colgroup><col style="width: 121pt;" width="161"><col
style="width: 64pt;" width="85"><col style="width: 67pt;"
width="89"></colgroup><tbody>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap; width: 121pt; height:
18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">Surface </td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap; width: 64pt;" width="85">
Number</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap; width: 67pt;" width="89">
Percent</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">unpaved</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">48664</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">80</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">gravel</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">6159</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">10</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">dirt</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">4559</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">8</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">compacted</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">642</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">1.1</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">sand</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">406</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">1</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">fine_gravel</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">230</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">0.4</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">earth</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">46</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">0</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height: 18.75pt;" height="25">
<td class="xl16" dir="LTR" style="padding-top: 1px;
padding-right: 1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt;
vertical-align: bottom; border: none; width: 121pt;
height: 18.75pt;" width="161" height="25">Total</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">60706</td>
<td class="xl19" style="padding-top: 1px; padding-right:
1px; padding-left: 1px; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; vertical-align: bottom; border:
none; white-space: nowrap;" align="right">100<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">In case that’s illegible, if you add all of these
unpaved/dirt/gravel ways, 80% are tagged with a generic unpaved
tag (which is entirely accurate if not especially precise).
Gravel is the next most common category, accounting for 10% of
ways. Apart from dirt at 8%, the rest are used very rarely. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">My guess from tagging surfaces on a lot of unpaved
roads is that perhaps 80% of the roads tagged as gravel do not
satisfy the OSM wiki definition and should be tagged as
something else. Interestingly, the two most relevant tags for
formed, unpaved surfaces - compacted and fine_gravel - are very
rarely used (around 1% each). There are probably more ways that
have fence-sitting tags like “dirt; sand; gravel” that end up
being pretty meaningless. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Adding precise surface tags may be simple on roads
that are freshly maintained but on roads that haven’t been
maintained for a while they’re often pretty difficult to assess
anyway. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>My take is that unpaved road surfaces change quickly and I don't
want to be fussed with too much detail. So I tend to map then as
unpaved. I think it more important to map the 'smoothness' (or
roughness) of the road if it is certain it will stay that way for
some time. </p>
<p>I do note that bulldust is not used... fine_sand is about as
close as I saw. Usually these are short stretches. They can
disappear after road maintenance... but reappear after some time,
if you do see them mapped .. please leave them!<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D24B5E33-314C-45E2-8583-8F79EE5A5746@gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Personally, I feel that there’s often too much
emphasis in OSM on precision (i.e. use detailed sub-tags) at the
expense of accuracy. I believe most of the generic unpaved tags
are accurate. I wish I could, but unfortunately I don’t believe
many of the specific sub-tags are especially useful. (Sand is a
goody though!). Cheers Ian</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I do wish that the sand depth was available.. and in some
instances the gravel depth! I have come across a number of people
who have had trouble with their vehicles tyres riding in trenches
while the vehicle floor/diffs dragged through the road center.
Those army mercs with their drop axles can build up a lot of depth
without any worry to them! <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D24B5E33-314C-45E2-8583-8F79EE5A5746@gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 23 Feb 2021, at 5:22 pm, Josh
Marshall <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:josh.p.marshall@gmail.com"><josh.p.marshall@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The approved OSM tag
for <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">surface=gravel</a> refers
to railway ballast, not the fine crushed rock or natural
surface that usually occurs on unpaved roads in
Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface
"gravel" in common parlance, and many unpaved roads that
don't constitute gravel as described in the OSM wiki
have been tagged as gravel here, erroneously depending
on your point of view.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a matter of interest to me too. I spend a
substantial amount of time running+riding on fire trails
in NSW (all highway=track), and the surface type is
useful and indeed used in a number of the route planners
I use. I have changed a few roads back to 'unpaved' from
'gravel' due to the rule of following the description in
the surface= guidelines rather than the name. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My question then however, is exactly what to tag the
tracks beyond "unpaved".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are definitely sections that are somewhat
regularly graded and appear to have extra aggregate/fine
gravel added. From the surface= wiki, these most closely
align with surface=compacted. But fine_gravel is
potentially an option too. Many of these are 2wd
accessible when it is dry. (Typically smoothness=bad.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are also others, usually less travelled, which
are bare rock, clay, dirt, sand, whatever was there. Is
it best just to leave these as surface=unpaved, and add
a smoothness=very_bad or horrible tag? None of the
surface= tags really seem to apply.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>For bicycle travel while smoothness is useful so too would be a
grading of required bicycle tyre width!<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D24B5E33-314C-45E2-8583-8F79EE5A5746@gmail.com">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at
16:45, Little Maps <<a
href="mailto:mapslittle@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mapslittle@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> <span></span>Hi Brian and co, in Victoria
and southern NSW where I've edited a lot of roads,
highway=track is nearly totally confined to dirt roads
in forested areas, as described in the Aus tagging
guidelines, viz: " highway=track Gravel fire trails,
forest drives, 4WD trails and similar roads. Gravel
roads connecting towns etc. should be tagged as
appropriate (secondary, tertiary or unclassified), along
with the surface=unpaved or more specific surface=*
tag."<br>
<br>
<div>In your US-chat someone wrote, "...in the USA,
"most" roads that "most" people encounter (around
here, in my experience, YMMV...) are surface=paved.
Gravel or dirt roads are certainly found, but they are
less and less common." By contrast, in regional
Australia, most small roads are unpaved/dirt/gravel. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In SE Australia, public roads in agricultural areas
that are unpaved/dirt/gravel/etc are usually tagged as
highway=unclassified (or tertiary etc), not
highway=track. There are some exceptions in some small
regions (for example in the Rutherglen area in NE
Victoria) where really poor, rough 'double track'
tracks on public road easements have systematically
been tagged with highway=track rather than
highway=unclassified. See here for example: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-36.1424/146.3683"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/-36.1424/146.3683
</a>. However, this is not the norm in SE Australia
and across the border in southern NSW, this type of
road is nearly always tagged as unclassified, as it is
elsewhere in Victoria. In SE Australia, my experience
is that tracks are tagged in the more traditional way,
and not as has been done in the USA. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I could ask you a related question, what do you
US mappers call "gravel"? The approved OSM tag for <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">surface=gravel</a> refers to
railway ballast, not the fine crushed rock or natural
surface that usually occurs on unpaved roads in
Australia. However we call the fine unpaved surface
"gravel" in common parlance, and many unpaved roads
that don't constitute gravel as described in the OSM
wiki have been tagged as gravel here, erroneously
depending on your point of view. How do you use the
surface=gravel tag in the USA? Cheers Ian</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 23, 2021
at 2:49 PM Brian M. Sperlongano <<a
href="mailto:zelonewolf@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">zelonewolf@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hello all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Recently, there was a discussion on the talk-us
list regarding how we use the tag highway=track.
That discussion begins here:</div>
<div>
<div><a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2021-February/020878.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2021-February/020878.html</a><br>
<br>
During that discussion, someone suggested that
Australian mappers may also be using the
highway=track tag in a similar way to US
mappers. Hence this message :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've recently made edits to the wiki page for
highway=track describing how the tag is used in
the USA:</div>
<div><br>
<a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack#Usage_in_the_United_States"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack#Usage_in_the_United_States</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>If there is similarly a local variation in
how this tag is used, I would encourage the
Australian community to document their usage as
well. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian Sperlongano</div>
<div>Rhode Island, USA</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
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