<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="SR-LATN-RS" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div class="m_-7315602016771995944WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Maybe I wasn't clear here. It is hard to have a public, free access road 'stuck between' two private roads. That means it is not possible to come to the public road in any possible way.
Cleary's claimed that basically, every unnamed road is private, which I'm providing an example of that is hard to be the case if you look in government data. This is an example of the situation:
<a href="https://prnt.sc/17ucsdg" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://prnt.sc/17ucsdg</a>. It's hard to have private roads marked as red and public (free access) roads marked as white.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I do not know how many changesets the team made on top of my head, but I have provided an exact number of segments that need some change. I have also claimed there are 1,244 individual
roads (mapped as 2,523 segments) with<u> classification errors</u>. Still, it won't prevent any routing thru it if we just adjust their classification in the form of
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Courier New"">unclassified|residential > service + service=driveway</span><span lang="EN-US"> (if/where applicable). This is why this topic turned its
course to </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Courier New"">access=private|destination</span><span lang="EN-US"> way.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I hope this clarifies some things.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> </span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It does, but perhaps in a way you dont quite intend.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I intepret this as you've put 2500+ classification errors into the map.</div><div dir="auto">I'm extremely unclear how you dont consider this detrimental to map quality in the region, because one scenario - routing - affects 350/2500?</div><div dir="auto">I mean, you'd be uncomfortable if you drove into an area and had a 5-14% chance of getting bogged; because it was a dubiously maintained road; and then you ring for help only to find you are trespassing too, right?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If your team have added highway unclassified or residential and it doesnt overlap with the <a href="http://data.sa.gov">data.sa.gov</a> dataset; *thats the scenario you are invoking*</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">From what I've looked at, this appears to be the case. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Happy to be corrected here, but when you say things like "<span style="font-family:sans-serif">Cleary's claimed that basically, every unnamed road is private" then tell someone with local context they are "wrong" because of assumptions you've made; possibly from flawed sources, rather than local context, law, or another provable set of assumptions... thats not a great outcome.</span></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="SR-LATN-RS" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div class="m_-7315602016771995944WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Nemanja<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Daniel O'Connor <<a href="mailto:daniel.oconnor@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">daniel.oconnor@gmail.com</a>> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 2, 2021 4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) <<a href="mailto:v-nebrac@microsoft.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">v-nebrac@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mateusz Konieczny <<a href="mailto:matkoniecz@tutanota.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">matkoniecz@tutanota.com</a>>; OSM Australian Talk List <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">Before starting any mapping activity, we have downloaded the same file from the SA gov site that you were referring to.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The second example is easy to fix – all you need is to extend the road name along the driveway/street – and that's it. However, there's no chance to know where
the road's name starts and where it ends for the first example.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Uh. The <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.sa.gov.au%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059210517%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=PUf2vMuAs6vOIpIvWkECBso3rfGCc7Anl8k8nyob7WQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
data.sa.gov.au</a> file contains both names and geometry of the road. They *also* reflect this same dataset through
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flocation.sa.gov.au%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059210517%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=zuSR2Fc3Jq6kLFKOdABQKD9%2F4UBuGPELGZyUA746Sog%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
location.sa.gov.au</a>; and while we cant use the latter in OSM, it very neatly describes where the believe a road intersects a parcel of owned land.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Broadly, the <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.sa.gov.au%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059220518%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=TyO1clv06MaBIGkW%2FDF8lYtwRmsSKIwNDTo8Z34WE14%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
data.sa.gov.au</a> file strongly reflects the on the ground access as they understand it - it overlaps very heavily with the gazetted streets.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Extending a name along a driveway; based on satellite imagery is the wrong approach.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">... since these roads would technically float. Also, all of these roads would be unreachable since these are public (searchable) roads 'stuck between' private roads.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the title system in Australia.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Council/gov maintained roads - free access.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Something else? Very likely private, permissive, or destination. The likelyhood of highway residential in the middle of a cattle station with everything else private? very small.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There are ~2000+ changesets your team has done. Perhaps only 350 of them added connectivity, but from sampling; many, many more added wrongly classified roads on the changesets I looked at (approx 50, 75% or so added highway=residential,
unclassified, etc).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Unfortunately at this point the onus is on your team to prove to a high degree their mapping is accurate; and beyond your particular use cases alone; vs folks like myself who go places based on the data and try not to get arrested.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The through routing is only a singular scenario, there are other current ones such as
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwandrer.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059230515%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=N1yVtYZRi%2BysRe%2F4iBc3js6hCOsoS644YPaT1wM%2B%2BFI%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">
wandrer.org</a> - a data consumer that encourages you to explore every public road.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> We recognized that some of these roads might be classified even as tracks. The government dataset identifies these segments as regular roads, but it is clear that some of these
are tracks.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The problem regarding private roads still stays an open question as it was for months now. We had the same online and offline discussion before, and there were
no conclusions or consensus on fighting this problem. My team will not add any new roads now, but editors will go back and fix these ~350 roads. We are very thankful for provided feedback, and we will try not to produce such issues in the future since we are
trying to follow all community rules and be completely open and transparent.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Nemanja</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-au <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 29, 2021 11:21 AM<br>
<b>Cc:</b> OSM Australian Talk List <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jun 28, 2021, 13:18 by
<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #93a3b8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We have to fix these 349 roads that provide connectivity and do not have any barrier tag. We can adjust their classification in the form of
</span><span class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784font"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Courier New"">unclassified|residential > service + service=driveway
</span></span><span lang="EN-US">(if/where applicable), but we <u>cannot</u> add any
</span><span class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784font"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Courier New"">access=private|destination</span></span><span lang="EN-US"> tags since we do not have ground truth.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If it is highly likely/almost certain that roads are inaccessible then maybe<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">access=private + fixme="verify is access really private, road mapped from aerial imagery"<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">or<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">access=unknown<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">would be a good idea? Especially in cases where misleading marking road as accessible<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">can cause direct risk to life, and as I understand this is a situation in remote Australia?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">When I map amenity=parking from aerial images I ususaly add access=unknown where<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">private access is quite likely?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(disclaimer: I never visited Australia)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(disclaimer: access=unknown for roads is - as far as I know - not a standard tagging)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Cleary <a href="mailto:osm@97k.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">osm@97k.com</a> <br>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2021 2:12 AM<br>
To: OpenStreetMap <a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] [EXTERNAL] Re: Low quality road classification contributions in SA via Microsoft Open Maps Team - contact point?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">Nemanjo</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">I have a strong contrary view. I have mapped some isolated parts of South Australia, although not recently. Routing vehicles onto private roads creates significant issues for farmers, including
threats to biosecurity. It can also endanger naive motorists to send them onto (sometimes impassable) tracks well out of phone range in any emergency. Adding such roads discredits OSM as a usable data source for many users.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">Further, the Government of South Australia has been most generous in making a lot of data available to OSM, long before other Australian jurisdictions. Available data includes Roads (<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.data.sa.gov.au%2Fdataset%2Froads&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059240507%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=%2B9Qj3KaV%2FoiWT%2BpJetCmrz6hnbkmVeJHhoNgKXdxqdw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.data.sa.gov.au%2Fdataset%2Froads&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7Cb90613c106cb433c9b0208d93a9339fd%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637605226327455895%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=QX2FnOP975CDBfwbElUqKwcqpg3ttgA%2F0RFi6BOoKvk%3D&reserved=0</span></a>)
which shows a lot of information including the class of roads and names (where applicable). The data also shows extensive tracks that could be used by private owners or emergency services etc but are not public roads. Public roads will have a class such as
LOCL (local roads) or HWY (highway) and they have names.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">From my experience "on the ground", any road in that database which is unnamed is almost certainly not intended for public access. Your team could refer to this data source and ensure that unnamed
roads are shown as access=private. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">Please keep OSM showing usable and helpful data rather than discredit it with data that can alienate farmers, endanger their stock and crops, and also endanger road users.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-7315602016771995944m5715548919119398784msoplaintext"><span lang="EN-US">Michael Cleary</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-au mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.openstreetmap.org%2Flistinfo%2Ftalk-au&data=04%7C01%7Cv-nebrac%40microsoft.com%7C553c7461d4244b9b2a0e08d93d6278e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637608316059240507%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=gOUnKArI6HAT2%2BRN2TyP3%2BWWxonRTEcxppUbHA89%2FH4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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