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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Yeah, I’m aware of that. As far as I can tell, there is no legal difference between (unsigned) footpaths and (signed) Shared Paths in regards to bicycles in Queensland as far as I can tell.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>e.g. <a href="https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle#footpath">https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/bicycle#footpath</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>simply lists the two cases together as one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>On one hand, that makes bicycle tagging easy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>On the other hand, because of the equivalence, the local council, at least in my suburb, doesn’t seem to bother putting up any shared path signs, despite the fact that some paths are by their construction (2.5m+ in width) pretty clearly designed as shared paths.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I noticed yesterday that some of them have this stamped on the surface every few 100m: <a href="https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/471231032645910529/889335852357025822/unknown.png">https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/471231032645910529/889335852357025822/unknown.png</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But, legally speaking, because of the absence of shared path signs, they are still footpaths.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Now, under the Australian Tagging Guidelines, I’m supposed to tag all of these as highway=footway as far as I can tell: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Australian_Footpath_.28no_sign.29">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Australian_Footpath_.28no_sign.29</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But I don’t think that really makes sense in this context because you do want the 3m paths perfect for cycling to stand out from the 80cm footpaths.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>When I started mapping my suburb donkey years ago, some of these larger “footpaths” where mapped as highway=cycleway with various inconsistent tags on top. I’ve since standardized them to:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>highway=cycleway<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>foot=designated (should that be only yes?)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>bicycle=yes (to distinguish them from signed “real” shared paths which are designated)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>segregated=no<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I believe this falls under the inverse of the rule:<br><br></span>Unfortunately, it is possible in Australia for a legally designated cycle facility to be completely unusable. A bicycle lane that is really a parking lane, or a shared path sign on a obstructed or even non-existent path. Mappers should use common sense and discretion, and map the effective facility that exists on the ground if it differs to what is defined by the Australian road rules.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>But, given that I think this situation (councils not bothering to put up shared path signs for paths that are clearly designed as such) is probably common in Queensland and other states where there is equivalence of unsigned paths and shared paths in regards to bicycle rules, maybe it would be worthwhile to reach some kind of consensus about this and document it in the ATGs?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1@gmail.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, 20 September 2021 09:26<br><b>To:</b> osm.talk-au@thorsten.engler.id.au<br><b>Cc:</b> OpenStreetMap <talk-au@openstreetmap.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [talk-au] Suspicious amount of removed bicycle tags<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>& in Qld, at least, bicycles are allowed to be ridden on the footpath, unless specifically barred.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>" <span class=gmail-markedcontent><span style='font-size:20.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Riding on the footpath</span></span><br><span class=gmail-markedcontent><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In Queensland, cyclists of any age are allowed to ride on a footpath unless prohibited by a ‘NO BICYCLES’ sign. You must give way to pedestrians and ride in a manner that does not inconvenience or endanger other footpath users.</span></span>"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Graeme<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 23:16, <<a href="mailto:osm.talk-au@thorsten.engler.id.au">osm.talk-au@thorsten.engler.id.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Well, that pretty much matches what I said before:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Anything that remotely looks like a footpath (is meant for people to walk on) is, in the absence of one of the 4 (3 + one mirrored) official signs I linked, a footpath.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>It is not in any way limited to things that would be tagged as “sidewalk” in OSM.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>e.g. take this example from my local neighbourhood: <a href="https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558999688670609448/889134418067881994/unknown.png" target="_blank">https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558999688670609448/889134418067881994/unknown.png</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In the absence of any signs saying otherwise (spoiler, there aren’t in this case) all of these are “footpaths” as defined by law.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Kevin Pye <<a href="mailto:kevin.pye@gmail.com" target="_blank">kevin.pye@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 19 September 2021 22:09<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au" target="_blank">forster@ozonline.com.au</a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:osm.talk-au@thorsten.engler.id.au" target="_blank">osm.talk-au@thorsten.engler.id.au</a>; OpenStreetMap <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [talk-au] Suspicious amount of removed bicycle tags</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi all<br><a href="http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s250.html" target="_blank">http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s250.html</a><br>ROAD SAFETY ROAD RULES 2017 - REG 250<br>says "Footpath is defined in the dictionary" but it doesn't say which <br>dictionary.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>"The dictionary" is the dictionary in schedule 5 pf the Road Safety Road Rules -- <a href="http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/sch5.html" target="_blank">http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/sch5.html</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The definition there is fairly broad: ""footpath", except in <a href="http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s13.html" target="_blank">rule 13(1)</a>, means an <a href="http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s350.html#area" target="_blank">area</a> open to the public that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by pedestrians"<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Not particularly helpful.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Sun, 19 Sept 2021 at 21:44, <<a href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au" target="_blank">forster@ozonline.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>> In regards to your changeset comment: "I doubt that means that all <br>> paths are footpaths unless otherwise signed."<br>> Generally speaking, yes, they are. In the absence of one of these signs<br><br>Hi all<br><a href="http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s250.html" target="_blank">http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2017208/s250.html</a><br>ROAD SAFETY ROAD RULES 2017 - REG 250<br>says "Footpath is defined in the dictionary" but it doesn't say which <br>dictionary.<br><br>Apparently the word "footpath" is used differently in different <br>countries. In Australia it means a US "sidewalk".<br>"A sidewalk (North American English), pavement (British English), <br>footpath (Oceanian English), or footway, is a path along the side of a <br>road."<br><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk</a><br><br>This is what my understanding of the footpath rule is in Victoria <br>Australia, don't ride on the path that runs between the property line <br>and the kerb.<br><br>That's not we are talking about here<br>ways 157071087 and 304507133 intersection<br><a href="https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-37.923613888889015&lng=145.32910000000004&z=17&pKey=941113219764485&focus=photo" target="_blank">https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=-37.923613888889015&lng=145.32910000000004&z=17&pKey=941113219764485&focus=photo</a><br><br>So I disagree with the suggestion that all paths are, for legal <br>purposes, footpaths unless otherwise signed.<br><br>Tony<br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-au mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Talk-au mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>