<div dir="ltr"><div>Was going to mention a couple of days ago - it worked!!! :-)</div><div><br></div><div></div><div>Was able to successfully create my lake with an island in it & have also added islands to other lakes already mapped as MP :sunglasses" :-)</div><div><br></div><div>So thanks everybody for your help! :-)</div><div><br></div><div>Another question though, thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm seeing some relations marked in JOSM as "incomplete":</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/9728292#map=14/-28.1002/153.4320">https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/9728292#map=14/-28.1002/153.4320</a> appears OK here, but not in JOSM?</div><div><br></div><div>How do you fix something like that?</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Thanks<div><br></div><div>Graeme</div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 17:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:graemefitz1@gmail.com">graemefitz1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>LOL!</div><div><br></div><div>Go to bed!</div><div><br></div><div>Talk more tmw.</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Thanks<div><br></div><div>Graeme</div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 15:42, stevea <<a href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.com" target="_blank">steveaOSM@softworkers.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thanks for the details: you are up-to-date w.r.t. JOSM and Java, the Windows version is OK, but there does exist Windows 11 now, that upgrade is "up to you." Windows 10 is still OK and if it's working fine, you can keep using it.<br>
<br>
The reason you think iD is friendlier is because you've gotten accustomed to it. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks! The thing to think about is that iD does a lot of "hiding" of things from you to make a candy-sweet user-interface experience, whereas JOSM expects you to know about some basics (start on the bottom rung of the ladder, but, hey, we all do!) and then you simply have to climb. But, the pace at which you do is all up to you, so there is no pressure. There might be some wrinkled brow and question marks along the way, but learning a new thing is like learning any new thing. You study something that explains it in a manner that makes sense to you, to toot around with it until you're comfortable with it (perhaps with some sour notes while tooting, that's OK), then it is yours forever.<br>
<br>
Some basics: OSM is data. OSM's data structures are of four basic types called nodes, ways, closed ways (polygons) and relations. The first two are quite basic (points and directional line segments), the third is simply a way that "goes back and touches itself back at the beginning" and relations are what's the hard nut to crack. Any of these four types can (and should...MUST, really) have at least one tag, a key=value pair. For relations, there are a variety of different flavors of tags to make different flavors of relation types (like routes, multipolygons, boundaries...) AND, very importantly, RELATIONS HAVE MEMBERS. At least one, usually many more than one. Members are the "collection of things" that make up the relation. For a multipolygon, this is the collection of polygons. For a route, the segments of connected ways that make up the route. For a boundary, the ways (or closed ways — polygons) that make up the boundary. And so on.<br>
<br>
For a multipolygon relation, there are something called "role tags." Let's start simple: a building with a single courtyard that isn't the building. You'd have a polygon representing the building and a polygon INSIDE the building polygon representing the courtyard. (So, two MEMBERS). Additionally, on a multipolygon, the BUILDING gets a "role tag" with value "outer" and the courtyard gets a "role tag" with value "inner." This tells OSM "an outer building has an inner courtyard" like this: polygon tagged building=yes is a member of the multipolygon, and it gets role tag of outer; polygon tagged courtyard=yes (I'm making that up) is another member of the multipolygon , and it gets role tag of inner. Done.<br>
<br>
Let's make this. After you did your "Create Multipolygon," you likely have (off to the right in your "panes" JOSM displays) a pane called "Relations: 1" (because you just created 1 relation and this is a new JOSM session). If you don't, the "pane panel" has little drop-down triangles that allow you to "turn on and off" which panes you want displayed in the "pane panel" (again, this panel toggles on and off easily by repeatedly clicking the Tab key, so you can see what I'm talking about). Walk down the "pane panel" and click these "disclosure triangles" on and off until you have a useful set of panes in this panel: Layers, Tags, Selection(s) abbreviated Sel., Relations...you might see or want others, like Command Stack, Author, Conflict, Validation Results, Map Paint Styles...but they're not germane right now. In the Rel pane, single-click your new relation (it should be the only one there, as you haven't downloaded anything, have you?) and notice there are three buttons below it in this pane: Select, Search and History. You could click Select (after a single-click of the relation) or you could double-click the relation. This brings up the relation window I described before: top half, and a bottom-left and bottom-right (with buttons along the lower-left and lower-middle). There are buttons along the left of the top part, but I never use them, you might not need to, either. In the case of a multipolygon relation, there needs to be a tag of type=multipolygon. That's already been done for you by the "Create Multipolygon" menu item, so it's already there<br>
<br>
Now, with that relation window open, notice that in the lower-left, there are the two members that you selected to "make" this multipolygon (with the menu command "Create Multipolygon" after you selected the polygons that you wanted to make the multipolygon out of). See them? You can also see that in the top half of this relation editing window is "type" on the left side (the key) "multipolygon" (the value of the key, making up a whole type=multipolygon tag). So far, so good. What JOSM (likely) doesn't know, is which one of the polygons is outer (the "whole") and which one is inner (the "hole!"). So, notice that at the top of the lower-left is "Role." Double-click (selecting it) the one-of-two polygons which is the outer (it "lights up" to show you it is selected), then single-click off to its left, right under "Role." Type the word "outer" (return). Do the same thing to the other one (select, click to left...) except this time, type the word "inner" (return). Now, click the OK button at the bottom of the relation editor window, and you've just created a real multipolygon!<br>
<br>
I might be forgetting something. But to really add real data to OSM, you'd:<br>
<br>
1) Open JOSM. You get the "welcome" screen, no map. Huh? Yeah, keep reading...<br>
2) Use the green down-arrow to select a chunk of map (not too large) to download.<br>
3) Start drawing your polygons into "the real fabric of the map," knowing that you haven't uploaded yet, but you will when all looks OK.<br>
4) After polygons are drawn, you can either select them and choose Create Multipolygon menu item, or create a new polygon from scratch, then select the polygons and add them one-by-one. We didn't go through this, it takes a bit of getting used to and is a bit hard to describe in email, though the web-based tutorial I pointed you to (it isn't video, it is text-on-web-pages) is pretty good. When your multipolygon relation (as described above) is to your liking:<br>
A) must have type=multipolygon tag in the "upper pane" of the relation editing window,<br>
B) must have at least two polygons,<br>
C) each polygon must have the proper role tag<br>
then you can<br>
5) Press OK at the bottom of the relation editing window.<br>
<br>
Now, your edit is "in the buffer" for your examination, verification (I highly recommend a plug-in called Validator...another topic...you'll get there) or further editing. Then, you must upload to the great OSM server in the sky! You do this with the green UP arrow, where you assign a changeset comment and all that.<br>
<br>
Hooray!<br>
<br>
So, as your "lake with an island" email just rolled in, I'd say that the lake polygon likely gets tagged outer, the island polygon gets tagged inner and Bob's your uncle. But actually, a lake in an island isn't really a multipolygon, to the best of my knowledge. MPs are usually for thing like "this whole vast area is tagged natural=wood, but there is this little meadow inside of it which is natural=grassland. OK, tag the "big outer" with natural=wood, tag the "little inner" with natural=grassland, make a MP with these two members, put the role tag outer on the big wood, put the role tag inner on the little meadow, make sure there is at least "type=multipolygon" in the top "tags area" of the relation editing window, and now you've made a "big wood with a little meadow" (and it WILL render properly!)<br>
<br>
Hope that helps, but I'm getting ready for bed, being 18 hours behind you (it's getting on 11 PM Wed. night here in California).<br>
<br>
G'day, good luck, check out that tutorial, even consider skipping right to the multipolygon section of it.<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
<br>
> On Mar 30, 2022, at 10:00 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:graemefitz1@gmail.com" target="_blank">graemefitz1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> G'day Steve<br>
> <br>
> Thanks!<br>
> <br>
> First off, the laptop. This one is actually pretty good, as it was only brand new last November! <br>
> <br>
> Dell Inspiron 5510, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Home Ver 21H2.<br>
> <br>
> & I'm running JOSM Version 18387, Java Version 17.0.2<br>
> <br>
> (& I hope that means a lot more to you than it does to me! To quote the man "I don't know what makes 'em work, I just use 'em")<br>
> <br>
> I've been playing with it for a few weeks & I'm pretty happy with most of the basics (although I still think iD is a lot friendlier!), & have got a couple of multi's to work, but I don't know how as I can't do it again!<br>
> <br>
> I'm playing with a test at the moment, have drawn the outer & inner, selected them both, then created the multipolygon.<br>
> <br>
> Over at the right, I've got Tags: 1 / Memberships: 0<br>
> Relations/Multipoygon ...<br>
> type=multipolygon<br>
> <br>
> Sel.: Rel.: 1 / Ways:0 / Nodes:0<br>
> multipolygon (0. 2 members)<br>
> <br>
> Relations:<br>
> multipolygon (0. 2 members)<br>
> <br>
> Ok, what next?<br>
> <br>
> Thanks<br>
> <br>
> Graeme<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 13:50, stevea <<a href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.com" target="_blank">steveaOSM@softworkers.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hi Graeme:<br>
> <br>
> Off-list. First, it's technically impossible to run JOSM without Java being installed: the J in JOSM stands for Java. It simply won't run without it. So if you ARE running JOSM, you have SOME version of Java installed.<br>
> <br>
> Next, let's assure some basics: that you've got the necessary hardware and software. What version of Windows, what version of Java? If you don't know you are running "Version 8, Update 321" then use this link:<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://www.java.com/download/ie_manual.jsp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.java.com/download/ie_manual.jsp</a><br>
> <br>
> to go get it. It's a very brief (2+ MB) download that shouldn't take more than a few seconds, although the associated installation process (initial or to update) will be longer, but no more than a minute or three (at most). Unless you are on "wheezy old hardware," and that may be the case, given how hard you seem to disparage that poor, old laptop of yours!<br>
> <br>
> Those are basics you might do with me anyway. But even though that might seem superfluous, after choosing "Create Multipolygon," you'll note in the right-side of "panes," — press the Tab key to see these appear and disappear — (the one that shows Sel, Rel, Ways, Nodes with numbers after some of them), a new item has appeared: your multipolygon (mp). Adding tags is done in the "Tags/memberships" pane. You can add a tag (or tags) to the whole of a mp there (make sure it's selected first, then use the + key to add a new tag/key-value pair). And you'll need to add members to an mp with the "relation editor," which is get-at-able by double-clicking the mp in the "Relations" pane.<br>
> <br>
> The resulting "mp editor" dialog (a new window) has three panes: upper is the key-value pairs that make up the tags on the whole mp. Lower-left are the members of the mp (empty for now, if you double-clicked the new, empty one you just created) and lower-right is the "current selection." The buttons in between lower-left and lower-right move between the selection and the memberships. The buttons off to the far left rearrange, delete, sort and download (from the server, if you've only got "part" of an mp, where you haven't the entire membership, but only SOME members) the members. You'll need to "confirm your changes" to the mp you've edited (tags or its members or both) with the OK button at the bottom of the mp editor dialog window.<br>
> <br>
> That's a very quick primer, there are good video tutorials (try <a href="https://learnosm.org/en/josm/start-josm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://learnosm.org/en/josm/start-josm</a>), but this is a pretty steep curve. Give yourself an entire weekend (a couple of days) to get the basics of JOSM down: creating nodes and ways, moving them around, splitting them, selecting them, turning them into closed ways to form a polygon, uploading your changes with the green up-arrow...those sorts of basics you may be familiar with from iD or other simpler editors, THEN get into relations, as they are a more advanced animal than simple nodes and ways. But I agree that using JOSM for its supreme relation editor is THE way to go to best edit relations.<br>
> <br>
> I'm here for you, man!<br>
> <br>
> Steve<br>
> <br>
> > On Mar 30, 2022, at 8:18 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:graemefitz1@gmail.com" target="_blank">graemefitz1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > I meant to add that I can start OK:<br>
> > Draw the outer box,<br>
> > draw the inner box,<br>
> > select them both,<br>
> > click on "Create multipolygon" ...<br>
> > but that's where I hit trouble!<br>
> > <br>
> > How do you add tags etc?<br>
> > <br>
> > Thanks<br>
> > <br>
> > Graeme<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > On Thu, 31 Mar 2022 at 13:15, Graeme Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:graemefitz1@gmail.com" target="_blank">graemefitz1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > Does anybody know of a simple, straight-forward, how-to for creating multipolygons using JOSM?<br>
> > <br>
> > If possible, I'd prefer a document rather than video, but beggars can't be choosers!<br>
> > <br>
> > I've already found a couple, but they either don't explain how-to, or I get different results when I do what they say? <br>
> > <br>
> > That "could" be because I'm using JOSM for Windows? (Have to as no Java on my laptop!)<br>
> > <br>
> > Thanks<br>
> > <br>
> > Graeme<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Talk-au mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>