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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Well I am not too sure that the correct tagging of buildings is applied at all in Australia as I can only see about 200 uses of building:use=* in all of Oz! Seems most folks use the building tag to denote current use rather than initial construction intention. I am sure there are more than 200 building adaptations across the country.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I could think of several building in my state that have had second or third lives from the original intention and none have building:use tagging and there must be 10,000’s across the country. I also understand that the fire station tagging will likely be much harder in cities than in rural areas where most will be a shed on a block somewhere. Also the more recent trend of combining fire, ambulance and maybe SES is also something that sort of hinders a ‘generic’ standard approach but nodes really help for each of these functions across a single site with combined building use.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I am inclined to think that the gold standard for a standalone fire station would be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><ul style='margin-top:0cm' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>amenity=fire_station for the block of land on which it stands<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>operator, wikidata etc and all other details on the block rather than the building<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>combined with building=fire_station (if built specifically) or building:use=fire_station if its known that it was built for another purpose<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Sample – standalone =</span> <span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102488871">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102488871</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>and the gold standard for a combined facility<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><ul style='margin-top:0cm' type=disc><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='color:#242424'>amenity=emergency_service on the block (no tagging for the renderer by using amenity=fire_station!)</span><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='color:#242424'>building tags of building=government (if not specific buildings for each service)</span><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='color:#242424'>nodes for each service if there are not specific buildings dedicated to each service and include all the operator, wikidate etc on these nodes</span><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><span style='color:#242424'>If specific buildings then tag the buildings (operator, wikidata etc) instead of individual nodes</span><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Sample – separate buildings = <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102327375">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102327375</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Sample – combined buildings =</span> <span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102321688">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102321688</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>More thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Cheers - Phil<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Mark Rattigan <mark@rattigan.id.au> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, 10 October 2022 10:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> talk-au@openstreetmap.org<br><b>Cc:</b> phil@wyatt-family.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Tagging fire stations<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>Hi Phil</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>I suspect that 'cleaning-up' these tags would require local knowledge for each location, and is certainly not as clean-cut as making sure that either one or the other is used.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>There are cases when only the building tag should be used, and some when only the amenity tag should be used. And others when both are appropriate.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>The building tag is intended for the original purpose of the building - ie, built as/to be a fire station. A historical/defunct fire station is still tagged as building=fire_station, even when it's no longer in use as such. (The same philosophy applies to building=church, even when it's no longer a place of worship)</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>The amenity=fire_station indicates a location from which fire brigades (currently) operate.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>For example, the DFES Education and Heritage Centre in Perth could be tagged as building=fire_station because that was its original purpose - it was originally No. 1 Fire Station. It couldn't be amenity=fire_station as it's not used as a fire station.</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>There are also plenty of minor RFS brigades which operate out of buildings that weren't originally built to be fire stations. </span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'>As for the amenity and whether it's an area or a point - it could possibly depend on whether the facility is solely for a fire brigade.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>For example, my local emergency service building houses all of Police, Ambulance, Fire&Rescue, RFS and SES. It seems to have the following tags:</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>For the building (perhaps this is incorrect though!)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>building=government</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>amenity=fire_station</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>Within this building there are separate nodes:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>1: emergency=ambulance_station (for Ambulance)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>2: amenity=fire_station (for RFS) </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>3: amenity=emergency_service and emergency=ses_station (for SES)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>4: amenity=police</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>(I thought there used to be a node tagged amenity=fire_station for Fire&Rescue, but it's no-longer.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>Cheers</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#242424'>Mark</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>Message: 4</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2022 20:10:15 +1100</span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>From: "Phil Wyatt" <<a href="mailto:phil@wyatt-family.com">phil@wyatt-family.com</a>></span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'>To: "OSM-Au" <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>></span></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Subject: [talk-au] Next tagging clean up project</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:000401d8dbbe$f3cbf990$db63ecb0$@wyatt-family.com">000401d8dbbe$f3cbf990$db63ecb0$@wyatt-family.com</a>></span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Hi Folks,</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>I am looking for my next tagging clean-up project and wondered about amenity</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>and building tags for fire stations</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>amenity=fire_station -</span></span><br></span><span style='color:black'><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfire_station" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfire_station</span></a></span><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'> -</span></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br></span><span style='color:black'><a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAq" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAq</span></a></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>building=fire_station -</span></span><br></span><span style='color:black'><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dfire_station" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dfire_station</span></a></span><span class=contentpasted0><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424;background:white'> -</span></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br></span><span style='color:black'><a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAr" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAr</span></a></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>This is partly in response to an issue logged for the ID editor requesting a</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>preset for fire stations buildings.</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br></span><span style='color:black'><a href="https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/pull/603" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/pull/603</span></a></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>There is already an ID preset for 'Fire Station' that uses the</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>amenity=fire_station key/value but it did get me looking at the differences</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>and how its been applied in Australia. There is a clear mix of buildings and</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>amenity tagging on both station areas and buildings, and some with both</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>tags!</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br></span><span style='color:black'><a href="https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/australia-oceania/australia/tags/amenity=fire_s" target="_blank"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;background:white'>https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/australia-oceania/australia/tags/amenity=fire_s</span></a></span><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#242424'><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>tation#combinations</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Should it always be the case that the 'plot' on which the fire station</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>building resides is the 'amenity' and the 'building' should be separate</span></span><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>within the plot? To me, its not 100% clear in the wiki's.</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Any thoughts?</span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'> </span></span><br><br><span class=contentpasted0><span style='background:white'>Cheers - Phil</span></span></span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>