<div dir="ltr">Hi Bob,<div> There are many varied stations in Australia, from the William Creek station being just a water tanker and attached pump sitting on the forecourt without a shed, to multi-emergency sites like Pakenham in Victoria. There are also local headquarters (LHQ's) and training grounds that may or may not be connected. </div><div><br></div><div>I would like to see an amenity=fire_station on all stations buildings if you can't define the property boundaries which would be useful for data extraction. I also believe LHQ's and others should be defined as fire_station and we should look at adding opening_hours=24/7 to permanently staffed stations. I don't think there is an opening_hours=occassional but it would be good to say that this station is probably locked up with no one on site.</div><div><br></div><div>Is there any State data we could use?</div><div><br></div><div>Ewen</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 at 05:15, Bob Cameron <<a href="mailto:bob3bob3@skymesh.com.au" target="_blank">bob3bob3@skymesh.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hi Y'all. (So lived in Texas in a past life..)<br>
</p>
<p>Possibly also worth noting</p>
<p>- Many a rural/remote site has an ill defined block boundary.
Some are tucked in corners of rec reserves and some are even on
private land. (which affects road access tags)</p>
<p>- Naming (on signs etc) may be problematic. Service vs Brigade vs
Station for example. ie is it a concern that using the name from
an allowed database contras what locals use. To add confusion I
have seen a crop of fairly new buildings with "official" signage,
but the existing (still in use) sheds (now with a 2nd appliance)
retain the old. <br>
</p>
<p>Cheers, Bob<br>
</p>
<div>On 10/10/22 16:49, Phil Wyatt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hi
Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Well
I am not too sure that the correct tagging of buildings is
applied at all in Australia as I can only see about 200 uses
of building:use=* in all of Oz! Seems most folks use the
building tag to denote current use rather than initial
construction intention. I am sure there are more than 200
building adaptations across the country.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I
could think of several building in my state that have had
second or third lives from the original intention and none
have building:use tagging and there must be 10,000’s across
the country. I also understand that the fire station tagging
will likely be much harder in cities than in rural areas
where most will be a shed on a block somewhere. Also the
more recent trend of combining fire, ambulance and maybe SES
is also something that sort of hinders a ‘generic’ standard
approach but nodes really help for each of these functions
across a single site with combined building use.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I
am inclined to think that the gold standard for a standalone
fire station would be<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span>amenity=fire_station
for the block of land on which it stands<u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span>operator, wikidata etc
and all other details on the block rather than the
building<u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span>combined with
building=fire_station (if built specifically) or
building:use=fire_station if its known that it was built
for another purpose<u></u><u></u></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sample
– standalone =</span> <span><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102488871" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102488871</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>and
the gold standard for a combined facility<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">amenity=emergency_service on the
block (no tagging for the renderer by using
amenity=fire_station!)</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">building tags of building=government
(if not specific buildings for each service)</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">nodes for each service if there are
not specific buildings dedicated to each service and
include all the operator, wikidate etc on these nodes</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0cm"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">If specific buildings then tag the
buildings (operator, wikidata etc) instead of individual
nodes</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sample
– separate buildings = <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102327375" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102327375</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Sample
– combined buildings =</span> <span><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102321688" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1102321688</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>More
thoughts?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Cheers
- Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Mark Rattigan <a href="mailto:mark@rattigan.id.au" target="_blank"><mark@rattigan.id.au></a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 10 October 2022 10:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:phil@wyatt-family.com" target="_blank">phil@wyatt-family.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Tagging fire stations<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>Hi
Phil</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>I
suspect that 'cleaning-up' these tags would require
local knowledge for each location, and is certainly not
as clean-cut as making sure that either one or the other
is used.</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>There
are cases when only the building tag should be used, and
some when only the amenity tag should be used. And
others when both are appropriate.</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>The
building tag is intended for the original purpose of the
building - ie, built as/to be a fire station. A
historical/defunct fire station is still tagged as
building=fire_station, even when it's no longer in use
as such. (The same philosophy applies to
building=church, even when it's no longer a place of
worship)</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>The
amenity=fire_station indicates a location from which
fire brigades (currently) operate.</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>For
example, the DFES Education and Heritage Centre in Perth
could be tagged as building=fire_station because that
was its original purpose - it was originally No. 1 Fire
Station. It couldn't be amenity=fire_station as it's not
used as a fire station.</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>There
are also plenty of minor RFS brigades which operate out
of buildings that weren't originally built to be fire
stations. </span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>As for the amenity and
whether it's an area or a point - it could possibly depend
on whether the facility is solely for a fire brigade.</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>For
example, my local emergency service building houses all
of Police, Ambulance, Fire&Rescue, RFS and SES. It
seems to have the following tags:</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">For the
building (perhaps this is incorrect though!)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">building=government</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">amenity=fire_station</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">Within this
building there are separate nodes:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">1:
emergency=ambulance_station (for Ambulance)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">2:
amenity=fire_station (for RFS) </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">3:
amenity=emergency_service and emergency=ses_station (for
SES)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">4:
amenity=police</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">(I thought
there used to be a node tagged amenity=fire_station for
Fire&Rescue, but it's no-longer.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">Cheers</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(36,36,36)">Mark</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>Message:
4</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>Date:
Sun, 9 Oct 2022 20:10:15 +1100</span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>From:
"Phil Wyatt" <<a href="mailto:phil@wyatt-family.com" target="_blank">phil@wyatt-family.com</a>></span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span><span>To:
"OSM-Au" <<a href="mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a>></span></span><span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">Subject: [talk-au] Next
tagging clean up project</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:000401d8dbbe$f3cbf990$db63ecb0$@wyatt-family.com" target="_blank">000401d8dbbe$f3cbf990$db63ecb0$@wyatt-family.com</a>></span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">Hi Folks,</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">I am looking for my next
tagging clean-up project and wondered about amenity</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">and building tags for fire
stations</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">amenity=fire_station -</span></span><br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfire_station" target="_blank"><span>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfire_station</span></a></span><span><span> -</span></span><span><br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAq" target="_blank"><span>https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAq</span></a></span><span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">building=fire_station -</span></span><br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dfire_station" target="_blank"><span>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dfire_station</span></a></span><span><span> -</span></span><span><br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAr" target="_blank"><span>https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1mAr</span></a></span><span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">This is partly in response to
an issue logged for the ID editor requesting a</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">preset for fire stations
buildings.</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/pull/603" target="_blank"><span>https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/pull/603</span></a></span><span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">There is already an ID preset
for 'Fire Station' that uses the</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">amenity=fire_station
key/value but it did get me looking at the differences</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">and how its been applied in
Australia. There is a clear mix of buildings and</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">amenity tagging on both
station areas and buildings, and some with both</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">tags!</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/australia-oceania/australia/tags/amenity=fire_s" target="_blank"><span>https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/australia-oceania/australia/tags/amenity=fire_s</span></a></span><span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">tation#combinations</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">Should it always be the case
that the 'plot' on which the fire station</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">building resides is the
'amenity' and the 'building' should be separate</span></span><br>
<span><span style="background:white">within the plot? To me, its
not 100% clear in the wiki's.</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">Any thoughts?</span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white"> </span></span><br>
<br>
<span><span style="background:white">Cheers - Phil</span></span></span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Warm Regards<br><br>Ewen Hill<br><br></div></div>