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<p>TL;DR: We need to get a systematic measure of population density
into OSM to act as a guideline for mapping software to vary what
goes at what zoom level. This can be done either by adding the
appropriately calculated/derived density measure to admin boundary
relations or, more radically, as part of a separate Metabase where
more arbitrary polygons are allowed.</p>
<p>And now a bit of an essay:</p>
<p>For me, population size is the only meaningful indicator of
relative importance as it is quantitative albeit fuzzy (to me it
doesn't really matter whether it is for an admin area, urban
envelope, metropolitan area, whatever - if anything more rigorous
is desired, use specialist tagging). </p>
<p>But the rub is the word "relative". Relative to what? When I
mapped Dalby, Queensland in 2006/2007 the ABS population was below
10,000 which in the then Brit-centric guidelines made it a
village, which is ridiculous given the importance of the town
within the area.</p>
<p>So, I think some sort agreed national level hierarchy of
populated place is important in order to jive with cultural,
legal, cultural and broad population density criteria. But to vary
it locally or regionally is dangerous and I agree with cleary (if
I am reading the quote levels right).</p>
<p>Graeme then says:</p>
<p>> ... but it would be good to do something that fixes the vast
empty when you cross the Great Dividing Range.</p>
<p>Yes. I think this is a map presentation issue not a map data
issue. I have a series of Android hobby apps published for
specific areas and the way I resolved it was to simply have a "low
zoom" flag in some of them which tells the map style sheet to show
farms, hamlets and villages at much lower zoom levels and with
greater prominence at higher levels. place=locality can also be a
good one to pick out as can landuse or even buildings. For
Australia, specifically, my tip would be to systematically tag
main farm building(s) as place=farm or derive it from named
landuse=farmyard.</p>
<p>But that raises another question. Is there a generic way to
generate a "low zoom" flag? There are at least two possible
solutions.</p>
<p>The first is to use the existing OSM data structure. Calculate or
derive (ABS??) population density for administrative areas and put
it on boundary relations, national, state and "local". It is then
up to the mapping software to see what is available and make
zoom-level detailing decision based on it. This is doable but
makes things hard for the small mapmaker like me to implement.</p>
<p>More democratic is to use a notion proposed by Sarah Houseman for
geocoding and I believe has much wider implication and is an
important step forward for OSM. I floated this at 2020 or 2021
SOTM. This is to have a separate "metadata" database of polygons
with, following OSM practice, whatever you like attached to them.</p>
<p>The point of the polygons is that you can attach rules and hints
to them. They can follow legal jurisdiction boundaries or can be
more general. As an example "All of Western Australia except the
Perth metropolitan envelope". Or, outside this discussion, "the
area where xxxx is the main spoken language". Here are the three
main areas that I propose. (3) is relevant to this discussion.<br>
</p>
<p>(1) Rules. In the NSW polygon, bicycle=no where footpath=sidewalk
except for children under 16. In the Australia polygon, driving is
to the left.<br>
</p>
<p>(2) Default hints. In the YYY polygon, surface=unpaved/paved
where highway=primary and surface tag not defined.</p>
<p>(3) Hints. Population density. Main spoken language(s). How
addresses are structured. ... and anything else that could be
useful for mapping, searching or routing in this area.<br>
</p>
<p>[Having such an open data, systematically structured database
removes a danger that map making moves back into the realm of
companies with deep pockets because only they have the resources
to 1) collate the data, 2) be able utilise it on the fly when
presenting maps, routing, searching based on OSM data.]<br>
</p>
<p>Mike<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/09/2023 04:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick
wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 28 Sept 2023 at
11:25, cleary <<a href="mailto:osm@97k.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">osm@97k.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div><br>
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<div>All valid arguments, thanks.</div>
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style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
If everything is exaggerated so that villages are described
as towns and towns as cities etc., then I think it just
devalues the whole database on which the map is based.<br>
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<div>I certainly see where you're coming from, but it would be
good to do something that fixes the vast empty when you
cross the Great Dividing Range: <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/-27.163/145.569"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/-27.163/145.569</a></div>
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style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I'll be interested to read comments from other mappers.<br>
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<div>So would I, but so far there's apparently not too many
interested in it?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Graeme</div>
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On Thu, 28 Sep 2023, at 9:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:<br>
> Thanks!<br>
><br>
> Yes, it probably shouldn't be a one size fits all
equation.<br>
><br>
> Against what you said, Rathdowney in SEQ, with ~1800
people, only has a <br>
> cafe / takeaway / store with a few grocery items, pub,
currently closed <br>
> servo, all of police, RFS & (honourary) ambo,
primary school, church/s <br>
> but it's a very popular day-trip tourist stop, so I
would definitely <br>
> count it as a town.<br>
><br>
> Most people travel 30k up the road to Beaudesert for a
full range of <br>
> services, so that should possibly become a city?<br>
><br>
> But Maroon, 20k the other way, with only a primary
school & a RFS <br>
> station, would only be a village. <br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
><br>
> Graeme<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, 28 Sept 2023 at 08:26, cleary <<a
href="mailto:osm@97k.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">osm@97k.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> I agree that population is not necessarily the only
factor but, in practice, population correlates closely with
the services and facilities available in a location which is
effectively the "relative importance", isn't it?<br>
>> <br>
>> I presume you are considering putting bigger dots
and bigger writing on the map for small settlements in
isolated areas. Map renderers can do that for themselves if
they wish. It is more important for OSM to show
on-the-ground truth. If a small settlement has few
services, then showing it as a town is misleading. <br>
>> <br>
>> Windorah Qld and Ivanhoe NSW are both currently
shown as "town" in OSM but neither has more than rudimentary
health service (if any), a hotel, small primary school and
service station. I couldn't buy a coffee in either place
last time I visited. I don't think either place had even a
small supermarket or convenience store. Unlikely to find a
doctor. Probably wouldn't find a car mechanic, couldn't buy
a new tyre if you needed one. The locals all travel a couple
of hundred kilometres for shopping, health care etc. I find
it very misleading to label these places as towns, just
because they are the largest settlements in their respective
vicinities. The towns are the places where people go to get
the goods and services they need.<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2023, at 2:18 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick
wrote:<br>
>> > Have just raised this for discussion on both
the Forum & Discord, so <br>
>> > also throwing it out here.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Tagging_towns_by_relative_importance%2C_not_just_population_size"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Tagging_towns_by_relative_importance%2C_not_just_population_size</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Any thoughts or comments welcome, in any
place!<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Thanks<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Graeme<br>
>> >
_______________________________________________<br>
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>> > <a href="mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> > <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><br>
>> <br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Talk-au@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au</a><br>
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