<div dir="ltr">I fully agree with Mr. Aftabuzzaman <br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><br><div><font size="4"><b><span style="color:rgb(53,28,117)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2"><br></font></span></span></b></font><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div style="text-align:left"><span><font size="4"><b><span style="color:rgb(53,28,117)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2"><span><font size="4"><b><span style="color:rgb(53,28,117)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2">-----------------------------------<br><br></font></span></span></b></font></span></font></span></span></b></font></span><br><span><img src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1--c6UhWiIxr9ETCxcR-cpFUHW14YhK0w&revid=0B6HCPozGjA7vSjBLcmpVR21JenBPbjNJaENDRGN1UjB3Vkg0PQ" height="87" width="96"></span><span><font size="4"><b><span style="color:rgb(53,28,117)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2"><span><font size="4"><b><span style="color:rgb(53,28,117)"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font size="2"><br></font></span></span></b></font></span>With Best Regards</font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br>Md. Iqbal Hossain</span></b></font></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"> |</span></font></span></span>
<div><font size="2"><b><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)"><span style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">Assistant Engineer</span></span></b></font><font size="2"><b><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)"><span style="color:rgb(204,0,0)"><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span></span> </span></b></font><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></span></div><font size="2"><b><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)">Premier University, </span></b></font><font size="2"><b><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)">Chittagong.</span></b></font><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span><span><font color="#888888"><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></font></span></div><div style="text-align:left"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></font></span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b>Cell :</b></font></font></span></span> +8801621628468, +8801884069142</span></font></span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span></span></font></span></div><div style="text-align:left"><span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b>Office : Cell: 01313044516, </b></font></font></span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b><span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b>01313044517</b></font></font></span></span></b></font></font></span></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b><span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></font></span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span></span></font></span></span></b></font></font></span></span> </b></font></font></span></span><span><font color="#888888"><font color="#008A17"><b><span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></span><span><font color="#888888"><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></font></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></font></span></span>Telephone : </b></font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">031-656917 (Ext.-101,105)</span></font></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span><br><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b>E-mail</b></font></span></font></span> <b>:</b> <a href="mailto:iqsrb722@gmail.com" target="_blank">i<u>qsrb722@gmail.com</u></a>,<a href="mailto:iqbalhossain@puc.ac.bd" target="_blank"> iqbalhossain@puc.ac.bd</a></font></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span><br><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></font></span></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><font color="#008A17">Skype : </font></span></span>Iqbaldider</span></font></b></font></span></font></span></font></span></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"></span></font></span></span><br><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><font color="#008A17">Office: </font></span></span></span></font></b></font></span></font></span></font></span></span></span></span></font></b></font></span></font></span></font></span></span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Premier University, Administrative Building#1, </span></font></b></font></span></font></span></font></span></span></span></span></font></b></font></span></font></span></font></span></span><br> 1/A, O.R. Nizam Road, Prabartak Circle,Panchlaish, Chittagong.<span><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block">|</span></font></span></span></div><div><span><span><font color="#888888"><span><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,161,230);display:inline-block"><font color="#008A17"><b><font color="#888888"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></font></b></font></span></font></span></font></span></span></div><span></span><span><font color="#888888"><div><a href="https://www.facebook.com/md.iqbal.hossain.puc.eee" target="_blank"><img style="border-radius:0px;border-width:0px;border-style:none;width:16px;height:16px" src="https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons_32/facebook.png" height="16" width="16" alt="fb link"></a> <span><span><font color="#888888"><img style="border-radius:0px;border-width:0px;border-style:none;width:16px;height:16px" src="https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons_32/linkedin.png" height="16" width="16"> <a href="https://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A6%AC%E0%A7%8D%E0%A6%AF%E0%A6%AC%E0%A6%B9%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%B0%E0%A6%95%E0%A6%BE%E0%A6%B0%E0%A7%80:IqbalHossain" target="_blank"><img alt="https://bn.wikipedia.org" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1Hp3D2oziEwwGtDlUqskNeRHQBY2H9TSj&revid=0B6HCPozGjA7vT1FNUXBNb0huaXZKaW1aVjNuclI4bU0rL2JVPQ" height="19" width="17"></a><br></font></span></span></div>
</font></span><font size="2"><b><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></span></b><br><br></font><span><font color="#888888"><div><br> </div>
</font></span><br><font size="2"><b><span style="color:rgb(255,0,255)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></span></b></font></div></div></div> <br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:02 PM <<a href="mailto:talk-bd-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-bd-request@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-bd mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh<br>
(Fazle Rabbi)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:22:18 +0600<br>
From: Fazle Rabbi <<a href="mailto:fazlerabbi37@gmail.com" target="_blank">fazlerabbi37@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Aftabuzzaman Ullah <<a href="mailto:aftabuzzamanullah@gmail.com" target="_blank">aftabuzzamanullah@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:talk-bd@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-bd@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for<br>
Bangladesh<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAAJwMTv00XLf9nAA6GF4TNpPFX4T0T_DUbzTRJHF5JS_6xeMLA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAAJwMTv00XLf9nAA6GF4TNpPFX4T0T_DUbzTRJHF5JS_6xeMLA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Mr Aftabuzzaman,<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for participating in the discussion. We really appreciate it.<br>
<br>
<br>
> I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in<br>
English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general<br>
community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in<br>
whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization</a><br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names</a> ) It is common<br>
practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all<br>
arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.<br>
<br>
Disagreement is part of discussion and always welcomed. You have said that<br>
as per your understating the OSM policy/general community guideline says<br>
`name` tag should be in local language and you refer to 2 OSM wiki links.<br>
The first link is about `name` tag localization not about what should be<br>
on a `name` tag. The first line of that section says, "By now the majority<br>
of rendering systems can deal with Unicode characters, so you can use the<br>
local script for the default name tag. There is no need to use the Latin<br>
script.". If I understand it correctly it says we can use local script<br>
assumed it works in most system but for us it is not working. The second<br>
link is about one place having multiple name in multiple language. If you<br>
check the Issue section (<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Issues" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Issues</a>), it says in<br>
the first point "if not disputed" `name` should have local name. I agree to<br>
disagree. We have dispute in local name. Multilingual name is not same as<br>
localization. For example, 'United States' has 'মার্কিন যুক্তরাষ্ট্র' as<br>
Bengali as Multilingual name but in the context of our country we call it<br>
'America'. Please don't mix them up. You have also referenced that Japan,<br>
China, Russia usages it but spiked about India which has similar font to<br>
Bangladesh than any of those countries. India has a different page (<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India#Naming_in_different_scripts_and_languages" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India#Naming_in_different_scripts_and_languages</a>)<br>
for it where the community after much discussion decided to keep English in<br>
`name` tag. Emphasis on 'after much discussion'. Let's see if we have<br>
anything of the same kind, shall we? We see that we do have a Bangladesh<br>
section (<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Bangladesh" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Bangladesh</a>)<br>
that says that `name` should be Bengali and `name:en= should be in English.<br>
But if we see the version history (<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&action=history" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&action=history</a>)<br>
for that page that this edit was made by you(<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Aftab" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Aftab</a>) on 19:55, 28 May 2019. The<br>
first ever edit made by you on OSM was on 04 Jul 2018 17:53:57. Nobody in<br>
the community knows about the page or the change. This looks very<br>
convenient, isn't it? This is very heart-breaking to see that you edited<br>
the wiki page without community consent to justify your work.<br>
<br>
<br>
> We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla<br>
correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority<br>
of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports<br>
Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla<br>
so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like<br>
solution.....<br>
<br>
Let's focus on the problem, shall we? The problem is putting Bengali in<br>
`name` tag is causing problem and how we should solve it. For you, UX<br>
problem caused by software that can't render Bengali is not an 'acceptable<br>
reason' to replace Bengali names with `name:bn` tag even if it makes the<br>
work of disaster response challenging, and we should ask the dev to fix<br>
them. Fair enough. What we need to remember that this is an open source<br>
ecosystem and people work as volunteer so it is tough to put a deadline on<br>
a problem like this. So what should we do in the meantime? If it doesn't<br>
work, shouldn't we use the Latin script instead of making a horrible user<br>
experience and waiting for the devs to fix the problem?<br>
<br>
I think, in your rush to reply you didn't read the email completely or<br>
understand it. For example, forgot about the second point for adopting<br>
English name in `name` tag which was the problem faced by humanitarian aid<br>
agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent and WFP who were unable to the data for<br>
Bangladesh. You said that "It is not true that in order to fix Bangla<br>
rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.". Unfortunately, I<br>
didn't say that on my mail. What I said that if we keep default names to<br>
Bengali, people from other country who wants to use the map of Bangladesh<br>
in OSM needs to learn because how else they will use that map with Bengali<br>
name?<br>
<br>
<br>
> It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see<br>
it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক ১"<br>
& "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local<br>
language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.<br>
<br>
At the past it was true. We see that some quick edits has been made to<br>
recover this, like: changeset 76836045(<a href="http://osm.org/changeset/76836045" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">osm.org/changeset/76836045</a>). We do<br>
really appreciate it. But we have discovered 2 new problems on those edits.<br>
<br>
- Changeset comments are in Bengali. For example, 'সংশোধন' meaning 'Fixed'.<br>
This is not OK even for me who can read Bengali. For me what is fixed? And<br>
for someone who can't read Bengali? Well, he is lost. Please remember that<br>
data is not just for the people of Bangladesh but also for all over the<br>
work. Please use English both in changeset comments and changeset<br>
discussions.<br>
<br>
- This is not a problem in your edit but it still a problem caused by the<br>
same notion that `name` tag should have Bengali value. The problem is<br>
`name` tags are being translated using Google Translate from the previous<br>
English value of the `name` tag. Which is bad. Really really Bad! For<br>
example, Bus stop became 'বাস থামবে'. changeset 76681081(<br>
<a href="http://osm.org/changeset/76681081" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">osm.org/changeset/76681081</a>) Photo Reference:<br>
<a href="https://photos.app.goo.gl/2RDMUz2PjQt655p78" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://photos.app.goo.gl/2RDMUz2PjQt655p78</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
> Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary<br>
"name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en for<br>
English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general guideline.<br>
Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats fine, no one<br>
going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad nameing guideline<br>
should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary "name" tag in<br>
Bangla.<br>
<br>
The OSM global policy is there to guide us which is not a decisive policy.<br>
For each community, the members of the community discuses what should be<br>
done keeping the guide as reference. What you wrote in this part is a<br>
proposal which if you asked the community, we could have discussed to come<br>
to can conclusion. But you already vandalized the data on your own make it<br>
unusable for both user and aid agencies. So we are way past that.<br>
<br>
<br>
Look this is not about you or edits made by you. Let's put all of this away<br>
for now and see this issue as a whole as it has an effect on the whole<br>
ecosystem then the tile images on the OSM site like data integrity,<br>
usability and use case for end user. Where literally human lives are at<br>
stake we should be a bit careful.<br>
<br>
<br>
I would like other in the community to engage on this conversation and put<br>
forward their opinion. Then we can decide on what to put on `name` tag.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you!<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Fazle Rabbi<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:32 AM Aftabuzzaman Ullah <<br>
<a href="mailto:aftabuzzamanullah@gmail.com" target="_blank">aftabuzzamanullah@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hello. Thanks for mail.<br>
> I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in<br>
> English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general<br>
> community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in<br>
> whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (<br>
> <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization</a><br>
> <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names</a> ) It is common<br>
> practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all<br>
> arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.<br>
><br>
> We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla<br>
> correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority<br>
> of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports<br>
> Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla<br>
> so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like<br>
> solution. Like you said openstreetmap-carto was unable to render Bangla but<br>
> it was fixed now. Same thing can be done with others, if an app doesn't<br>
> support Bangla, we need to submit bug report, reach out the developer for<br>
> adding Bangla font. Thats will be correct solution. It is not true that in<br>
> order to fix Bangla rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.<br>
> They will just need to specify/include a Bangla font. we should need to<br>
> take necessary step to fix rendering problem in the apps/site that don't<br>
> render Bangla correctly e.g. submiting bug report (for exemple, to fix HOT<br>
> rendering problem we need to ask developer to add a Bangla font here<br>
> <a href="https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts</a> . i can see they<br>
> already added arabic, tamil, thai, lao etc font) I will be happy to help<br>
> with this & others.<br>
><br>
> It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see<br>
> it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক ১"<br>
> & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local<br>
> language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.<br>
><br>
> Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary<br>
> "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en for<br>
> English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general<br>
> guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats<br>
> fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad nameing<br>
> guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary<br>
> "name" tag in Bangla.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-bd mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Talk-bd@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-bd@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd</a><br>
><br>
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Subject: Digest Footer<br>
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End of Talk-bd Digest, Vol 36, Issue 8<br>
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