<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=UTF-8">
<title></title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
There are two things wrong:<br>
- The antenna at the site of BIPT is placed not on the roof of the
building but above the white tent / parasol of the terrace (See their
Google map with satelite view).<br>
(Are the antennas in front of the building against the wall?)<br>
- The street before the cafe in OSM is running through this terrace
(see Bing sattelite view).<br>
(The way is not actualy a street but the border of the market place)<br>
the actual street should be located more south-west.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/91685551">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/91685551</a><br>
Why do you convert the location in degrees, minutes and seconds as the
BIPT site has already 2 formats?<br>
<span class="menuHead" title="3° 57' 10.5" E / 50° 27' 18.2" N">Coordonnées:</span>
3.95292 E / 50.45506 N<br>
<span class="menuHead">Lambert:</span> X: 120473 / Y: 127218 m <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.45506&mlon=3.95292&zoom=18">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.45506&mlon=3.95292&zoom=18</a><br>
Seems the same location as on BIPT.<br>
Regards,<br>
Gerard.<br>
<br>
Linusable wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4DB2EDA6.5010509@yahoo.fr">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
I have tried a few times this converter website :<br>
<a href="http://twcc.free.fr/" class="external text" rel="nofollow">the
world coordinate converter</a><br>
>From my point of view, it's OK, at least for the geodetic points i
tested. It could be interesting to discuss and chek some original data
for a few antenna, like the one i mentionned on the cafe 'Le Central',
grand place of Mons,<br>
<br>
I have seen on the website of IBPT: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sites.ibpt.be/" target="_blank">http://www.sites.ibpt.be/</a>
that the position 3° 57' 10.5" E / 50° 27' 18.2" N for the above
mentionned point was also a few meters on the grand place, with the
google images<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Linusable<br>
<br>
Le 23/04/11 15:47, Ben Abelshausen a écrit :
<blockquote
cite="mid:BANLkTikdmtxgGqxaM4PG_VkOEDcUTHn-WQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">It is possible the coordinate conversion was not very
accurate but the source data was. I had some problems before converting
<span>Lambert coordinates and got about the same deviations.</span><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Linus
Able <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:linusablelinus@yahoo.fr">linusablelinus@yahoo.fr</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman','new',york;">
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;">
Hello everybody, Hello Pol,</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"> i
should want to question the accuracy of the data. I have seen (before
Pol deleted the data) one of the antenna points on the (openstreetmap)
Grand-Place de Mons, in JOSM, with Bing aerial as background. The point
is café Le Central, at the corner of Grand Place with rue de Nimy. I
suppose the Antenna is on the roof, but it appeared a few meters on the
Grand Place, with a difference of about 5-10m compare to the Bing
images.</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;">
What is wrong (or imprecise) : antenna coordinates or Bing position ? </div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"> In
order to investigate Bing positionning around Mons, I checked against a <span
style="font-family: 'Times New',Roman;"><span>geodetic point from
ign/ngi (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.ngi.be"
target="_blank">www.ngi.be</a>), using Fiche Planimétrique45D06C1,
with a survey point at position </span></span>N 50.47149281234526 E
4.028218331187543 (Obourg). It seems that the error is less than 1-2
meters.</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"> </div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"> My
naive first conclusion is that the accuracy of the antenna positions
could be quite poor, specially in dense area (towns or cities). This
could result to absurd situations like antenna on streets.</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"> <br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;">Maybe
it could be interesting to use a script to analyse distance of antenna
(from the data files) with nearest streets ? or another standard
procedure ?</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;">
Regards,</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;">
Linusable</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color: black; font-family: 'times new',roman,',',new york;"> Le
22/04/11 16:33, Pol a écrit :
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">I deleted them this morning and as long
as the situation is not clear.
<div><br clear="all">
-<b><span
style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; font-family: sans-serif;">φ</span>ol
d.</b>-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 10:22, Gerard
Vanderveken <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ghia@ghia.eu" target="_blank">Ghia@ghia.eu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> I was looking up some
on the map, but it seems that tower:type = communications is not
rendered anymore???<br>
I tought they were before, altough only in Osmarender, cfr VRT radio
and tv towers in Overijse - Wavre.<br>
<br>
I see some have a name, but I'm affraid that it won't add much, but
instead duplicating and cluthering the rendering and names of the
current places (buildings like churches etc)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/7911333"
target="_blank">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/7911333</a><br>
Some has also very generic names eg. watertoren, kerk, etc<br>
<br>
There is a Wiki about GSM in the Belgian project<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources#GSM.2FUMTS_antenna_sites"
target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources#GSM.2FUMTS_antenna_sites</a><br>
<br>
Should the points not to be deleted, until the status about their use
becomes clear??<br>
For the moment it is obvious that it is forbidden data.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Gerard.<br>
<br>
Pol wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="http://midBANLkTikqWU6mFvOG=4R4uFVV0WKefJK46w@mail.gmail.com">
<div>
<div>Hello,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I contacted them this morning and they asked me to
write down a mail explaining the request, why, etc etc etc.</div>
<div>That's what I did. If you want a copy of the mail (in
french), just contact me in private.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They told me that they will forward the mail to their
law departement and I should expect an answer next week.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let's cross our fingers ! ;) I'll keep you updated of
the situation !</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By the way, I'll be at the hackdemocracy
this Thursday, April 28, 2011: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.meetup.com/HackDemocracy/events/17010026/"
target="_blank">http://www.meetup.com/HackDemocracy/events/17010026/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have a nice day all.</div>
<div><br clear="all">
-<b><span
style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; font-family: sans-serif;">φ</span>ol
d.</b>-
<div><font color="#202020"
face="'Droid Sans', arial,
sans-serif"><span
style="border-collapse: collapse;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 22:14, Pol
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:d.paolino@gmail.com" target="_blank">d.paolino@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hello,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Someone forwarded me the mail from Lennard talking
about the revert or not of my commit.</div>
<div>I wasn't aware of the existence of that mailing list
until now.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me explain to all of you how it all began...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One year ago I was looking, for personal purpose,
the coordinates of each cell phones antennas in Belgium.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The first site I found was: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.antennes-gsm.be/" target="_blank">http://www.antennes-gsm.be/</a></div>
<div>But that one seems to be old and no more maintained.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then I found the one of IBPT: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.sites.ibpt.be/" target="_blank">http://www.sites.ibpt.be/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The one you are currently seeing at this address is
the new version.</div>
<div>When I first found it, they were using an old
version.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>By doing some searches, I found a huge security hole
in it.</div>
<div>I was unemployed at that time and I decided to make
an exploit.</div>
<div>The exploit was simple, using HTML and JavaScript, I
could manipulate their databases by sending custom queries.</div>
<div>I'm not a kid and I'm someone who destroy someone
else's work, so I contacted them and explained the problem.</div>
<div>The reaction was fast, some days later I was in
their offices with my laptop, showing them the problem and the possible
solutions.</div>
<div>I also made a new local proof of concept that it
could be done in a nicer and cleaner way.</div>
<div>Unfortunately, they were really kind and say thanks
but we do not rely on our team to do the map, we rely on another
company and we cannot break the current contract with them.</div>
<div>Before leaving, I asked to the head of security if
it was possible to get a dump of the antennas coordinates in a more
easy way to put it on OpenStreetMap and he said that it couldn't be
done: "Imaginez ce que pourrait faire qqun de mal intentionné s'il
trouve ces données!" which means: "Imagine what could do someone
malicious if they finds these datas!".</div>
<div>Which is completely a non sense because those datas
can be retrieved from THEIR online website.</div>
<div>I said him that ! Someone could spot by himself all
the antennas and put them on OpenStreetMap. He didn't reply to that one.</div>
<div>So, I leaved, quite sad.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some month later, the current new system was in
place and the security hole vanished, problem solved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With the new system, it's even easier to get their
datas.</div>
<div>I decided to save in a file all the data I could get
from their map in a file and submit it to OpenStreetMap.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That's the end of the story.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's up to you now to decide if you want to remove
them or not.</div>
<div>If you have questions, I'll reply to them on that
mailing list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nice evening all.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-<b><span
style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; font-family: sans-serif;">φ</span>ol
d.</b>- </div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><hr size="4" width="90%"><div>
_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
</div></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-be mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a></span></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-be mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<pre wrap=""><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre wrap="">
<hr width="90%" size="4">
_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>