<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Goeienjour, Bondag, Haello, привет,<br>
<br>
The boundary names have been mentioned.<br>
I wanted to write this later but I'm changing my priorities.<br>
<br>
I have participated quite a bit to bordering, especially in the
Liège-Verviers area.<br>
3 guys named M, A & P ! (OSM borders made us friends).<br>
<br>
I found names on the borders and I queried the Tagging@osm mailing
list about them.<br>
The boundary way name is not used by the database, say some people.<br>
And it seems to me that most say it shouldn't be used because the
others say so.<br>
I found no very convincing reason why it must not be used. Does it
hurt?<br>
<br>
On the other hand, they say that those names are useless.<br>
And here comes my own experience to show exactly the opposite.<br>
Those names are <b>TERRIBLY useful to identify</b> a borderline
segment !!!<br>
When you're at a triple point with JOSM, instead of fumbling into
the data for 3 relations to see what the communes/gemeenten names
are and where you are, you immediately see that one border is called
A-B, the other one B-C, and off you go drawing A-C. No errors.<br>
Those names spared me quite a lot of time !!!<br>
You may do double (cross) checking too!<br>
I would probably stop my border work if the names were removed.<br>
<br>
It also shows in listings that we but also curious people can use:<br>
Like this: <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/65606">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/65606</a><br>
Or this: <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/58447">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/58447</a><br>
You simply don't know which border is which, just a little hint if
you know the UK rivers.<br>
<br>
Others examples are very different:<br>
Like this: <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/71525">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/71525</a><br>
Or this: <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1407211">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1407211</a>
;-)<br>
You know where you are, you know where to go, you know what you do
!!!<br>
These examples show that the names are terribly useful to identify
the borderlines.<br>
<br>
Furthermore, I have written this extremely simple program (Perl
script) <br>
<a
href="http://www.papou.byethost9.com/maps/Belgian_boundaries/spider.osm">http://www.papou.byethost9.com/maps/Belgian_boundaries/spider.osm</a><br>
that has produced this useful worksheet:<br>
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Papou/OSM">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Papou/OSM</a><br>
(people can write their name to indicate they tackled some task and
add OK when done)<br>
<br>
I can tell you the script wouldn't be that simple if there were no
names on those ways !!!<br>
I am currently modifying it to use the XAPI and not stress OSM.ORG.<br>
The new version will compute border lengths.<br>
We will be able to play the longest/shortest boundary game.<br>
All-around one or between two communes/gemeenten.<br>
I prefer two winners. Could be interregional ;-) Free trip for two
to France :-)<br>
Well, seriously, I can do that cross-checking and a lot of other
checks with that script.<br>
If you want to build a list...<br>
<br>
The same people who say that the way's name=* tag is useless say
that the admin-level=* is useful so that a rendering program know
that information without accessing further data. I say that the
name=* tag is useful for exactly the same reason for other programs
and for humans.<br>
<br>
There's a hitch, however:<br>
<br>
<table cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181325568"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181325568)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181023490"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181023490)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181023491"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181023491)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/180849347"
title="">Liège — Verviers (180849347)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181024761"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181024761)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181028658"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181028658)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181028757"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181028757)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181029539"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181029539)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181032538"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181032538)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181032537"
title="">Liège — Verviers (181032537)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/182602419"
title="">Liège — Verviers (182602419)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/179676526"
title="">Liège — Verviers (179676526)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
it makes absolutely no sense to identify border segments that way.<br>
The names should obviously be those of the communes/gemeenten.<br>
When a border tracer meets a border like this, it's complete
confusion.<br>
I have heard the saying "the highest admin level wins".<br>
It's probably Verdy's invention to apply that to names.<br>
This is absolutely false. That rule is for admin_level only.<br>
As I understand it, so that the renderer knowns with which width
write which one.<br>
Furthermore, it make no sense that map readers saw municipality
names in one place, arrondissement ones in another, province names
elsewhere and country names on top.<br>
Especially if the municipality is Liège, the arrondissement is Liège
and the province is Liège.<br>
This remark holds for both these names and the names derived from
the relations.<br>
<br>
The best solution in my opinion would be to make multilinestring (or
simply route) superways at each admin level. Liège (prov.) border
would look as follows:<br>
<table cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/183474459"
title="">Liège — Luxembourg (x)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181382470"
title="">Huy — Verviers (y)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">Way <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/181325568"
title="">Liège — Verviers (z)</a> as outer</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="way ">etc...<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
and each of x, y and z ways would contain the municipality borders
that we just removed with their correct names.<br>
BTW, this technique has already been used on the German border.<br>
But alas, alas, alas, the software do not support this (yet?),
starting with JOSM that not only complains with errors but also no
longer does an extremely useful border loop check.<br>
<br>
That's a lot of topics that will have to be split in different
threads.<br>
<br>
The most urgent, because it blocks work, is:<br>
<ul>
<li>do we keep names (nice listings, my scripts etc...): my own
answer is a very strong yes<br>
</li>
<li>do we convert them to municipality names: my answer is a very
strong yes too<br>
</li>
</ul>
These Belgian decisions are very necessary to withstand the invaders
;-)<br>
<br>
Aureziens, Totevoir, Byaws, пака, dji so-st-on pô nåhî ;-)<br>
<br>
Cordialement,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</body>
</html>