<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013-10-01 13:11, Ben Laenen wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:3315374.p90KehZ8QV@kalliope" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Monday 30 September 2013 23:58:36 André Pirard wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Désolé, j'ai mal exprimé ma pensée, j'interprétais vos raisonnements.
Mais si, si vous voulez laisser passer les vélos, il faut ajouter
bicycle=yes Les tags OSM respectent les règles OSM et pas le code de la
route belge. On ne s'y retrouverait pas si l'interprétation d'OSM suivait
les règles particulières de chaque pays.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Well, this discussion has been held a lot of times in the past. It's
completely impossible to mold the entire world into a set of tag rules without
exceptions in any country at all. It already starts with the definition of
each different category of vehicle, so we couldn't even make a tag set which
is valid for the entire world if we were to tag every vehicle type explicitely
(think roads that have motorcar=yes, goods=yes, bicycle=yes, motorcycle=yes,
foot=yes, horse=yes etc). We in Belgium have two types of mopeds, in other
countries they have mofa and moped, other countries have a single type of
moped, and then the rules start to change what it means exactly if you tag a
road with moped=no.</pre>
</blockquote>
I agree with you that, in contrast with what OSM seems to want to do
(on the wiki and on the tagging list), we cannot map everything down
to the slightest detail. And on the other hand, it is not mandatory
do better than the many mistakes that exist in the law and
administration.<br>
But we should not pretend to map traffic rules and do it plain
wrong.<br>
If we tag bicycle=yes where it should be =no, the marvelous OSM
routing programs will send bicycles there. In that case, we'd better
tag nothing at all.<br>
<br>
<a
href="http://www.yournavigation.org/index.php?flat=50.531649978153&flon=5.6194436972541&tlat=50.5331775897&tlon=5.5935228293353&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik">Click
here to open this map</a>. You see the route. Select Goods,
recalculate. No change.<br>
Now select Heavy Goods, recalculate. See? It understood the
hgv-only restriction.<br>
That program is even laughing at the road administration because the
route is perfectly respectful of the signs but I know that what they
want is preventing the HGVs to go <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.53180&mlon=5.59428#map=18/50.53180/5.59428">down
this road and through Esneux</a>. <br>
Now, try doing this with Google Maps, try with ViaMichelin, anything
else to try?<br>
<br>
Well, guys, I'm proud of working for OSM when I see such results and
you can understand that I'm always upset when I see yournavigation
or Osmand on my phone making a routing mistake.<br>
<br>
In consequence, if we do not find something we need in the OSM tags,
we should request it.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:3315374.p90KehZ8QV@kalliope" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So yes, we have to have country defined rules about access tags. And one of
them is that access=destination will always allow pedestrians, cyclists and
horse riders in Belgium. Another one for example is that a motorroad=yes will
disallow pedestrians, cyclists, mopeds, horse riders and other animal drivers
without having to add all these explicitely.
</pre>
</blockquote>
I have an idea for country specific rules and other matters. I hope
to be able to send a message to the tagging list soon.<br>
<br>
The matter about C3 is as follows. The present definition was this:<br>
<br>
<table class="wikitable">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td rowspan="3"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#C3">C3</a>
</td>
<td> <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
class="image"><img alt="Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
src="cid:part4.07020900.05080609@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="80"></a>
</td>
<td>
<p>No entry in both directions
</p>
</td>
<td>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:vehicle"
title="Key:vehicle" class="mw-redirect">vehicle</a>=no</tt>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
<p><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
class="image"><img alt="Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
src="cid:part4.07020900.05080609@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="80"></a>
</p>
<p><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg"
class="image"><img
alt="Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg"
src="cid:part9.09040709.08060005@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/8/8b/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/8/8b/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="26"></a>
</p>
<p><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg"
class="image"><img
alt="Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg"
src="cid:part11.07070301.09000209@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/8/81/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/8/81/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="26"></a>
</p>
</td>
<td>
<p>Only destination traffic allowed. Horses, bicycles,
pedestrians are always allowed.
</p>
</td>
<td>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access"
title="Key:access">access</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddestination"
title="Tag:access=destination" class="mw-redirect">destination</a></tt>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
Isn't it strange to fully forbid access to "vehicle" and to
partially forbid access to "everything", making a difference with
pedestrians when the only difference is a Belgian exception
regarding horses and bicycles?<br>
<br>
Let us analyze the terms of the law.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><strong><a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/am/am-111076/864-hs2art9#9.2">9.2</a>. Signal
C3. Accès interdit, dans les deux sens, à tout conducteur.</strong></blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><strong><a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/100-art2#2.13">2.13</a>.</strong> Le
terme <strong>"conducteur"</strong> désigne toute personne qui
assure la direction d'un véhicule ou qui guide ou garde des
animaux de trait, de charge, de monture ou des bestiaux.<br>
</blockquote>
Hence, C3 applies to "vehicle" plus "horse" (rather than everything
minus foot and ski)<br>
<br>
vehicle=no<br>
horse=no<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><strong><a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/100-art2#2.47">2.47</a>. </strong>Les
termes <strong>"excepté circulation locale"</strong> ou <strong>"desserte
locale" </strong>désignent une voie publique qui n'est
accessible qu'aux véhicules des riverains de cette rue et des
personnes se rendant ou venant de chez l'un d'eux y compris les
véhicules de livraison; y sont aussi admis sans exceptions les
véhicules des services d'entretien et de surveillance, lorsque la
nature de leur mission le justifie, les véhicules prioritaires
visés à l'<a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/207-art37">article
37</a> et les <u>cyclistes et les cavaliers</u>. [my underline]<br>
</blockquote>
Hence, C3 = "destination" applies to ("vehicle" plus "horse") minus
("bicycle" plus "horse")<br>
<br>
vehicle=destination<br>
delivery=yes<br>
emergency=yes<br>
bicycle=yes<br>
<br>
In consequence, I have modified our wiki as follows.<br>
<br>
<table class="wikitable">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td rowspan="3"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Road_signs_in_Belgium&action=submit#C3">C3</a>
</td>
<td> <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
class="image"><img alt="Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
src="cid:part4.07020900.05080609@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="80"></a>
</td>
<td>
<p>No entry in both directions
</p>
</td>
<td>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:vehicle"
title="Key:vehicle" class="mw-redirect">vehicle</a>=no</tt>
</p>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:horse"
title="Key:horse">horse</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:horse%3Dno"
title="Tag:horse=no" class="mw-redirect">no</a></tt>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>
<p><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
class="image"><img alt="Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg"
src="cid:part4.07020900.05080609@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/5/58/Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-c3.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="80"></a>
</p>
<p><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg"
class="image"><img
alt="Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg"
src="cid:part9.09040709.08060005@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/8/8b/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/8/8b/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-plaatselijkverkeer.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="26"></a>
</p>
<p><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg"
class="image"><img
alt="Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg"
src="cid:part11.07070301.09000209@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/8/81/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg/120px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/8/81/Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg/160px-Belgium-trafficsign-ob-iv-circulationlocale.svg.png
2x" width="80" height="26"></a>
</p>
</td>
<td>
<p>Only destination traffic allowed. Horses, bicycles,
pedestrians are always allowed.
</p>
</td>
<td>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:vehicle"
title="Key:vehicle" class="mw-redirect">vehicle</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:vehicle%3Ddestination"
title="Tag:vehicle=destination" class="mw-redirect">destination</a></tt>
</p>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:delivery"
title="Key:delivery">delivery</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:delivery%3Dyes"
title="Tag:delivery=yes" class="mw-redirect">yes</a></tt>
</p>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:emergency"
title="Key:emergency">emergency</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dyes"
title="Tag:emergency=yes" class="mw-redirect">yes</a></tt>
</p>
<p><tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bicycle"
title="Key:bicycle">bicycle</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Dyes"
title="Tag:bicycle=yes" class="mw-redirect">yes</a></tt>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
Let me know any comment.<br>
<br>
Now we have to ask:<br>
<ul>
<li>OSM tagging: does "emergency" mean "prioritaire" and what is
this tag exactly for? Do not emergency vehicles know where they
are going? Is it necessary to tag an emergency exception to
each restriction to tell a fireman or anyone that they are
allowed to put out fires where other vehicles cannot go?</li>
<li>Belgian law: if <strong><a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/100-art2#2.47">2.47</a></strong>
allows those firemen to pass a "destination" sign, does it mean
that <strong><a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/100-art2#2.13">2.13</a></strong>+<strong><a
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/am/am-111076/864-hs2art9#9.2">9.2</a>
</strong>disallows them to do so?<br>
</li>
</ul>
<blockquote cite="mid:3315374.p90KehZ8QV@kalliope" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I know it's not an elegant solution, and that it does put a big burden on all
data users to interpret what access tags mean in every country, but I always
had this "dream" already quite some time ago that one day some kind of a
library would be built that would take the tags on a road, and then you can
ask if a certain vehicle is allowed or not for that given country. A place
where all these local country rules would be defined. But I guess that's
beyond this discussion :-)</pre>
</blockquote>
I once wrote a message on the tagging list about such a library
idea. Not a single reply.<br>
I now have a new idea that makes much sense.<br>
Wait a bit (I hope).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>