<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012-11-16 23:33, A.Pirard.Papou
wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:50A6BF51.3000205@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012-11-11 12:36, Ben Laenen wrote
:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:201211111236.05773.benlaenen@gmail.com"
type="cite"> On Sunday 11 November 2012 01:39:57 A.Pirard.Papou
wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"> On 2012-11-08 16:46, Ben Laenen wrote :
<blockquote type="cite"> On Thursday 08 November 2012 16:34:23
Sander Deryckere wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> Hi, I'm trying to organise the
boundaries a bit, there's not a lot of work on it, so it's
basically checking if there are no problems. There is a
problem I have found with Verviers though. If you look at
the relation (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1407211">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1407211</a>)
you see that as subareas, the Arondissement of Verviers
has a French speaking part, and the German community. That
French speaking part get's a strange boundary type
(boundary=administrative_fraction), combined with an
admin_level=7 tag and the German speaking part has a
boundary=political tag. </blockquote>
German Community should be a boundary=administrative +
admin_level=5 Who keeps changing it to a boundary=political
on the wiki anyway?
<blockquote type="cite"> As administrative boundaries should
be nested nicely, I propose to delete the boundary
2436189, and to use the municipalities of the
Arrondissement of Verviers as subareas. Just as with any
other arrondissement.<br>
<br>
Does everyone agree with this? </blockquote>
Boundaries don't need to be nested. In our country it's
impossible to do so anyway. </blockquote>
What do you mean? That there should be a single relation
called Belgium or that all ways should be at level 8? </blockquote>
I mean that (for example) there's really no problem if two
enitities of the same admin_level overlap a certain area (so
that area belongs two both entities). E.g. Brussels belonging to
both Flemish and French Community. Or if an entity with
admin_level=8 doesn't sit nicely inside an entity with
admin_level=6. E.g. German speaking community being part of the
Liege province. Or French community not spanning the entire
Liege province. Ben</blockquote>
<br>
So, it's about correct nesting and overlapping...<br>
<br>
I think that programs doing checks could finger-point at
overlapping areas (within a relation) and that they could suddenly
start recursing to find overlapping subareas without warning.
[...]<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Regarding my concern to avoid overlaps...<br>
Exactly what I said did not happen (yet?) but if you query
Nominatim, you will get:<br>
<br>
City <a class="set_position" data-id="1635651356"
data-lat="50.8465406" data-lon="4.3516841"
data-max-lat="50.8465423583984" data-max-lon="4.3516845703125"
data-min-lat="50.8465385437012" data-min-lon="4.35168409347534"
data-name="Brussels, Brussels-Capital, French Community,
Brussels-Capital Region, 1000, Belgium" data-prefix="City"
data-type="node"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=4.35168409347534&minlat=50.8465385437012&maxlon=4.3516845703125&maxlat=50.8465423583984">Brussels,
Brussels-Capital, French Community, Brussels-Capital Region, 1000,
Belgium</a><br>
<br>
Nominatim calls Brussels French-speaking because it does not support
overlapping areas.<br>
Do Busselairs live in two "communities" or in one that is bilingual?<br>
(and that "Village Boundary <a class="set_position"
data-id="2404021" data-lat="50.84340935"
data-lon="4.36748762309029" data-max-lat="50.8904113769531"
data-max-lon="4.40201187133789" data-min-lat="50.7964057922363"
data-min-lon="4.33549880981445" data-name="Brussels, Ville de
Bruxelles, Brussels-Capital, French Community, Brussels-Capital
Region, 1000;1040, Belgium" data-prefix="Village Boundary"
data-type="relation"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=4.33549880981445&minlat=50.7964057922363&maxlon=4.40201187133789&maxlat=50.8904113769531">Brussels,
...</a>" is funny but that's another story)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">... Community should be a
boundary=administrative + admin_level=5 <br>
Who keeps changing it to a boundary=political on the wiki anyway?
</blockquote>
The wiki is as it "should"...<br>
it states that <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Boundaries#Linguistic_Communities_.28Gemeenschappen_.2F_Communaut.C3.A9s_.2F_Gemeinschaften.29"><span
class="tocnumber">2</span> <span class="toctext">Linguistic
Communities (Gemeenschappen / Communautés / Gemeinschaften)</span></a>
are<tt style="background-color:#e0e0f0; white-space:pre;" dir="ltr"><br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary"
title="Key:boundary">boundary</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative"
title="Tag:boundary=administrative">administrative</a></tt>
<br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:admin_level"
title="Key:admin level" class="mw-redirect">admin_level</a>=5<br>
<pre>But the map is not...
I see for example that <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/53136">Flemish Community</a> is now a <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary?uselang=en" title="The wiki description page for the boundary tag">boundary</a>=<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=political?uselang=en" title="The wiki description page for the boundary=political tag">political</a> relation
but that its ways (like <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/125772618">125772618</a>) are <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary?uselang=en" title="The wiki description page for the boundary tag">boundary</a>=<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=administrative?uselang=en" title="The wiki description page for the boundary=administrative tag">administrative</a>.
</pre>
<pre>It used to be as it "should" but someone changed it, seemingly undiscussed.
It happened in <a href="http://api.openstreetmap.fr/browse/changeset/14165030">changeset 14165030</a> on 12/5/12 (w/o date format!).
And this recalls me a message:</pre>
<div class="moz-forward-container">
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
<td>Tue, 01 Oct 2013 23:57:54 +0200</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
<td>Ben Laenen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:benlaenen@gmail.com"><benlaenen@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<blockquote type="cite">Great, now change it back the way it was.
You don't do that without discussion. <br>
<br>
Greetings
Ben<br>
</blockquote>
I am surprised that those who do not start a discussion are not
spoken of, that those who start a discussion are accused of not
doing it and that their discussion is not continued.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Boundaries don't need to be nested. In our
country it's impossible to do so anyway. </blockquote>
They need to. You see what can happen if they overlap. My fears
are right.<br>
And, AFAIKS, it's quite "possible": making the linguistic
boundaries political as they stand solves the problem.<br>
As the administrative and political boundaries are different
types, they don't overlap.<br>
(I was saying that the overlap started in relation Belgium)<br>
The only remaining problem is Brussels, if I don't miss anything.<br>
<br>
<tt>But how does Nominatim nest areas? Try to make sense of this </tt>;-)<br>
Village <a class="set_position" data-id="331742981"
data-lat="37.7481814" data-lon="-119.5868869"
data-max-lat="37.7481842041016" data-max-lon="-119.586883544922"
data-min-lat="37.7481803894043" data-min-lon="-119.586891174316"
data-name="Yosemite Village, Mariposa County, California, United
States of America" data-prefix="Village" data-type="node"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=-119.586891174316&minlat=37.7481803894043&maxlon=-119.586883544922&maxlat=37.7481842041016">Yosemite
Village, Mariposa County, California, United States of America</a><br>
Attraction <a class="set_position" data-id="408906523"
data-lat="37.7488554" data-lon="-119.589339"
data-max-lat="37.7488555908203" data-max-lon="-119.589332580566"
data-min-lat="37.748851776123" data-min-lon="-119.589340209961"
data-name="Yosemite, Village Drive, Yosemite National Park,
Yosemite Village, Mariposa, California, United States of
America" data-prefix="Attraction" data-type="node"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=-119.589340209961&minlat=37.748851776123&maxlon=-119.589332580566&maxlat=37.7488555908203">Yosemite,
Village Drive, Yosemite National Park, Yosemite Village,
Mariposa, California, United States of America</a><br>
National Park <a class="set_position" data-id="1643367"
data-lat="37.8405959" data-lon="-119.516643544532"
data-max-lat="38.186351776123" data-max-lon="-119.199501037598"
data-min-lat="37.4948387145996" data-min-lon="-119.886344909668"
data-name="Yosemite National Park, Mt. Hoffmann Trail, Yosemite
National Park, Mariposa County, California, United States of
America" data-prefix="National Park" data-type="relation"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=-119.886344909668&minlat=37.4948387145996&maxlon=-119.199501037598&maxlat=38.186351776123">Yosemite
National Park, Mt. Hoffmann Trail, Yosemite National Park,
Mariposa County, California, United States of America</a><br>
<br>
<a class="set_position" data-id="1643367" data-lat="37.8405959"
data-lon="-119.516643544532" data-max-lat="38.186351776123"
data-max-lon="-119.199501037598" data-min-lat="37.4948387145996"
data-min-lon="-119.886344909668" data-name="Yosemite National
Park, Mt. Hoffmann Trail, Yosemite National Park, Mariposa
County, California, United States of America"
data-prefix="National Park" data-type="relation"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=-119.886344909668&minlat=37.4948387145996&maxlon=-119.199501037598&maxlat=38.186351776123">Yosemite
National Park</a> is <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary?uselang=en"
title="The wiki description page for the boundary tag">boundary</a>=<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary=national%20park?uselang=en"
title="The wiki description page for the boundary=national_park
tag">national_park</a> but is delimited by
boundary=administrative ways etc...<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</div>
</body>
</html>