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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013-11-13 17:20, Ben Laenen wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:2919257.NnzQx2WpQd@kalliope" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Wednesday 13 November 2013 16:27:11 André Pirard wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The issue seems clear to me, especially in French.
We have 3 kinds of persons according to the official language they
speak, but we have *4 territories* one of which is bilingual in the
sense that their people can choose between two languages. "behorend tot
zowel" is ambiguous: it should made clear that it speaks of the persons
and not the territories.
But that's obvious. A territory cannot be inside 2 disjoint territories,
and that's the problem...
As OSM is obviously drawing territories, the communities do not fit in
relations, these must contain territories
As nobody cares, as I am presently involved in Brussels modifications,
and as I know boundaries well, I can do that:
- add a 4th territory aka community for Brussels.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Please don't make up names. There's no Brussels community so don't invent one. </pre>
</blockquote>
I don't make up names at all.<br>
I'm asking (<b><big><big>?</big></big></b> below) what Brussels
linguistic region should be called.<br>
Please read my message below carefully.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> The three territories are called:<br>
<br>
Flemish Community, Communauté flamande, Vlaamse Gemeenschap,
Flämische Gemeinschaft<br>
French Community, Communauté française, Franse Gemeenschap,
Französische Gemeinschaft<br>
German-speaking Community, Communauté germanophone, Duitstalige
Gemeenschap, Deutschsprachige Gemeinschaft<br>
<br>
They should normally not be called territories, but I'm not going
to start a misunderstood revolution.<br>
Brussels' Community? Bilingual Community?</blockquote>
Let us use the correct words instead.<br>
The constitution defines <b>3 linguistic communities</b> and <a
href="https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9gislation_sur_l%27usage_des_langues_en_Belgique"><b>4
linguistic regions</b></a>.<br>
Communities are people and people cannot be shown on a map, only the
territories where they live.<br>
Hence, the Belgian map must contain the <b>linguistic </b><b>regions</b>
and not the communities.<br>
The present names "XXX community" are wrong and should be "XXX
region".<br>
These XXX regions are Flemish speaking, French speaking, German
speaking and Brussels bilingual.<br>
They presently use boundary=political but there is no such one for
Brussels, it should be created.<br>
I was asking for their names (<big><big><b>?</b></big></big>).<br>
In case "XXX community" is continued to be used, I showed that
"Brussels community?" is impossible.<br>
<a
href="http://www.dgparlament.be/fr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-2890/5450_read-35054/">In
principle, their official names are here.</a><br>
<br>
So, in addition to correcting those wrong names:<br>
<ul>
<li>a Brussels bilingual region should be added, it should be
inside Belgium.<br>
</li>
<li><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/54094">Brussels-Capital
Region</a> should be removed from within French and Flemish
speaking regions.</li>
<li>there should be a hole in the Flemish region to put that
Brussels-Capital bilingual region into</li>
<li>the wiki should describe that correctly<br>
</li>
</ul>
But wait...<br>
<ul>
</ul>
<blockquote cite="mid:2919257.NnzQx2WpQd@kalliope" type="cite">The
one thing I now agree with is getting the communities out of the
administrative boundaries, if only to please software that gets
its mind blown when it belongs to two entities of the same kind at
once.<br>
</blockquote>
You mean to get the boundary=political (linguistic regions) out of
the boundary=administrative ones.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:2919257.NnzQx2WpQd@kalliope" type="cite">But
that seems to have happened anyway already, see <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/78967">http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/78967</a>
. You just have to wait until nominatim has updated its database.
<br>
</blockquote>
But for Nominatim we must also have no administrative inside
political.<br>
And that's not the case.<br>
<br>
For example:<br>
German speaking region is inside both administrative Liège and
Verviers, plus Belgique<br>
Région de Bruxelles-Capitale inside French<br>
Région de Bruxelles-Capitale inside Flemish<br>
I discovered boundary=<b>administrative_fraction</b> relations that
are made up:<br>
Wallonie (Communauté française) administrative_fraction (?) inside
French<br>
Liège (Communauté française) inside it and Liège<br>
And relation Verviers is not inside anything.<br>
It is a COMPLETE MESS !!!!<br>
<br>
But now, <b>regarding Nominatim</b>:<br>
<br>
Village <a class="set_position" data-id="81068012"
data-lat="50.53065" data-lon="5.7110705"
data-max-lat="50.5306510925293" data-max-lon="5.71107053756714"
data-min-lat="50.530647277832" data-min-lon="5.71107006072998"
data-name="Louveigné, Лувенье, Liège, Communauté française,
Wallonie, Belgique" data-prefix="Village" data-type="node"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=5.71107006072998&minlat=50.530647277832&maxlon=5.71107053756714&maxlat=50.5306510925293">Louveigné,
</a><a class="set_position" data-id="81068012" data-lat="50.53065"
data-lon="5.7110705" data-max-lat="50.5306510925293"
data-max-lon="5.71107053756714" data-min-lat="50.530647277832"
data-min-lon="5.71107006072998" data-name="Louveigné, Лувенье,
Liège, Communauté française, Wallonie, Belgique"
data-prefix="Village" data-type="node"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=5.71107006072998&minlat=50.530647277832&maxlon=5.71107053756714&maxlat=50.5306510925293">Louveigné</a><a
class="set_position" data-id="81068012" data-lat="50.53065"
data-lon="5.7110705" data-max-lat="50.5306510925293"
data-max-lon="5.71107053756714" data-min-lat="50.530647277832"
data-min-lon="5.71107006072998" data-name="Louveigné, Лувенье,
Liège, Communauté française, Wallonie, Belgique"
data-prefix="Village" data-type="node"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=5.71107006072998&minlat=50.530647277832&maxlon=5.71107053756714&maxlat=50.5306510925293">,
Liège, <b>Communauté française</b>, Wallonie, Belgique</a><br>
<big><big>Nominatim <b>mixes</b> administrative and <b>political</b>
boundaries</big></big><br>
It should be one or both of:<br>
administrative: <span class="set_position"> </span><span
class="set_position"><span class="set_position"></span><span
class="set_position">Louveigné, </span>Louveigné</span><span
class="set_position">, Sprimont, Liège (arr), Liège (prov),</span><span
class="set_position"> Wallonie, Belgique<br>
</span><span class="set_position">linguistic: </span>Village <span
class="set_position">Louveigné,</span><span class="set_position">
<b>Communauté française</b>, </span><span class="set_position">Belgique</span><br>
(BTW, it completely ignores <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:is%20in?uselang=fr"
title="La description de la balise <code>is_in</code>
sur le wiki">is_in</a> = Sprimont, Liège, Wallonie, Belgique,
Europe)<br>
<br>
I already showed that with mixed Yosemite National Park and
administrative boundaries.<br>
<br>
So, Nominatim not only ignores our subarea nesting but also the
types of boundaries.<br>
Nominatim just considers any boundary area inside another boundary
area topologically.<br>
And it remains to figure why it skipped one Liège and how it managed
to put Communauté française inside Wallonie.<br>
<br>
So, in order to have Nominatim work correctly, get rid of all those
boundary mistakes and to have people finally grasp something when
looking at the boundary tags, I recommend dropping the political and
administrative_fraction boundary types and to use a simple and
conventional tree like this:<br>
<ul>
<li> <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/52411">Belgium
(52411)</a></li>
<ul>
<li> <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/54094"
title="">Brussels-Capital Region (54094)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/53134"
title="">Flemish Region (53134)</a> </li>
<ul>
<li>provinces<br>
</li>
</ul>
<li class="relation "> <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/90348"
title="">Wallonia - (90348)</a></li>
<ul>
<li class="relation ">other provinces<br>
</li>
<li class="relation "><a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1407192">Liège
(1407192)</a></li>
<ul>
<li class="relation "><a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2620916"
title="">Liège (2620916)</a> (arrondissement)<br>
</li>
<li class="relation "><a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2436189"
title="">Verviers (French-speaking part) (2436189)</a> <br>
</li>
<li class="relation "><a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2425209"
title="">German-speaking Region (Verviers) (2425209)</a>
</li>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>
Any name change you like.<br>
I think it's clear enough.<br>
<br>
Otherwise, I think that Nominatim will never work correctly.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
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<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
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