<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
On 2014-01-17 13:22, Julien Fastré wrote :<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> I think EPSG 4326 and 3857 are now
available on all webservices, since beginning of December : </blockquote>
<br>
On 2014-03-07 18:50, Julien Fastré wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:531A06D7.1050402@fastre.info" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hi,<br>
<br>
I had contact with the people responsible for the WMS servers.
They closed old servers and may started new ones in December,
migrating to the last version of ArcGis.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Julien, if you check what you say, you will see that the <b>old
servers are not closed</b> and that the <b>EPSG 4326 bug</b> that
I reported to the SPW 5 years ago and that I explained to you is
still present: EPSG 4326 is advertised but the tiles are blank.<br>
What do you mean with "may started"?<br>
Please do not have them solve the bug by closing the old servers.<br>
They are usable with Lambert projection (but not together with the
other servers (like Bing, new Mapbox etc.)).<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:531A06D7.1050402@fastre.info" type="cite"> The
WMS are available in EPSG:4326, 3857 and 900913 or will be in the
future.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The conclusion of my investigation is that the SPW contains <b>nothing</b>
such, usable with JOSM (to look at (but not copy (yet))). When is
the future when Wallonia will be able to start tagging?<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:531A06D7.1050402@fastre.info" type="cite">All
the information is now available from the geoportail (<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be">http://geoportail.wallonie.be</a>).<br>
</blockquote>
I suppose you mean <a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?">http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue</a><br>
What we are looking for is WMS services to use with JOSM (to look at
(but not copy (yet))).<br>
After spending much time opening all <b>Geoservices</b> tabs one by
one, I saw <b>it is empty</b>.<br>
I found exactly 2 services of little interest.<br>
The most important <b>Base data</b> are absent.<br>
<br>
<table border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top"><br>
</td>
<td valign="top">Géoservices<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">OK<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">Géodonnées<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Données de base<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">0<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">0<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">12<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Mobilité<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">0<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">0<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">10<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Aménagement du territoire<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">2<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">1<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">17<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Tourisme et Loisir<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">0<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">0<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">3<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Société et activité<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">1<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">1<br>
</td>
<td valign="top">12<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
When looking at <b>Géodonnées</b>, one finds viewers.<br>
These viewers use <a
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services">http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services</a>.<br>
As I mentioned before, those services use Arcgis protocols that are
unusable with JOSM.<br>
Arcgis allows to configure them for WMS but that hasn't been done.<br>
Configuring WMS seems just a bit more that ticking an option box as
explained here:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisserver/10.0/help/arcgis_server_dotnet_help/index.html#/WMS_services/009300000057000000/">http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisserver/10.0/help/arcgis_server_dotnet_help/index.html#/WMS_services/009300000057000000/</a><br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:531A06D7.1050402@fastre.info" type="cite">But
the PICC seems to be down those days...<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<b>YES</b>, the PICC is still there !!!<br>
I almost fell off my chair when <a
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/TOPOGRAPHIE/PICC/MapServer/WMSServer?request=GetCapabilities&service=WMS">I
found it hidden inside the Géodonnées</a><br>
<br>
But it's unusable!!! If you try to configure it with JOSM, you get
the message <b>Could not parse WMS layer list</b>.<br>
<br>
So, I ran this validation program <a
href="http://services.geonovum.nl/check-wms">http://services.geonovum.nl/check-wms</a>
and it produced ... <b><br>
279 error messages</b> !!! of which most are ...<br>
<ul style="padding-left:20px;" id="SRSsupport">
<li> <a href="http://services.geonovum.nl/check-wms/#"
onclick="$$('#SRSsupport #comment0')[0].toggle();return
false;"> Layer '1' supports EPSG:4326, but does not return a
valid image.</a></li>
<li>Layer '1' does not support EPSG:4258, EPSG:25831, EPSG:25832,
EPSG:28992. </li>
</ul>
That is ... the <b>EPSG 4326 bug</b> that I reported to the SPW 5
years ago and that I explained to you.<br>
It is still present (4326 is advertised but the tiles are blank).<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:531A06D7.1050402@fastre.info" type="cite"> For
instance : To add the 2013's orthophoto in JOSM :<br>
<br>
Edit > preferences >WMS/TMS<br>
click " +WMS", paste this url : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/IMAGERIE/ORTHO_2012_2013/MapServer/WMSServer">http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/IMAGERIE/ORTHO_2012_2013/MapServer/WMSServer</a>?<br>
click "Obtenir les calques"<br>
Select "Orthos"<br>
add a better name (below, because in a few months the ortho of
2014 will be available)<br>
and OK... </blockquote>
Yes, that's how we know that JOSM can be configured indeed, Julien.<br>
But look at how the only SPW WMS 4326 service's map looks... !!!!<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:part9.08080004.07000806@gmail.com" alt=""><br>
<br>
<br>
As I let you know last July, I replied to an SPW survey basically
asking "what do you need?".<br>
I replied that without WMS 4326, their servers are unusable.<br>
A summary of the answers pinpointed that the Arcgis servers are very
expensive but not that they are unusable.<br>
I received a new questionnaire and I replied that without WMS 4326,
their servers are unusable.. With insistence.<br>
<br>
So, the conclusions are:<br>
<ul>
<li>do the SPW test what they install? ;-)))))<br>
</li>
<li>does anyone but me investigate what is available and usable?
;-)))))</li>
<li>what we need more than the ortho-photos is the topographic
maps.</li>
<li>there is nothing recent at SPW that can be used to tag with
JOSM normally (to look at (but not copy (yet))).<br>
</li>
<li>implementing WMS on the Arcgis servers looks very easy but it
was not done<br>
</li>
<li>will the 5 year old 4326 bug ever be corrected? ;-)))))</li>
<li>do they listen to what they're told?<br>
</li>
<li>when we will have the permission to copy, will there be
anything to copy?<br>
</li>
</ul>
Cheers,
<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:531A06D7.1050402@fastre.info" type="cite"> <br>
Julien<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 05/03/14 12:28, André Pirard a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:53170A54.7050901@gmail.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-01-17 13:22, Julien Fastré
wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:52D92071.3030205@fastre.info" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 16/01/14 21:12, André Pirard a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:52D83D2E.5070001@gmail.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-01-16 17:44, Julien
Fastré wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:52D80C6C.90904@fastre.info"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi,
I am contacted with the Cabinet of Philippe Henry, in charge of
geography in Wallonia.
They would like to have the opinion of the contributors about the "plan
stratégique de la géomatique".
They need someone to talk. This person should be in Wallonia and there
should be an agreement to talk with him.
If you would agree, I propose myself to go on with those talks, until we
have a more organised organisation (under the umbrella of OKFN).
Do you agree that I go to discuss with them, summarize the plan, pro and
cons, and give them back an advice from OSM contributors ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Don't forget that, in addition to legality, we technically
need WMS + EPSG 4326,3857,900913, ....<br>
These EPSGs were missing from the [PICC] cartopro2 WMS
server that they have removed.<br>
You told us that the SPW said that they would add the EPSGs
by the end of the year.<br>
I've just read that the new Arcgis REST system they use
serves all EPSGs already.<br>
And I could verify that (with a bit of surprise).<br>
But now, where is the WMS? It sounds like just an Arcgis
wms=yes configuration tag to add :-)<br>
Could that be recalled "to-morrow"? Or the day after?<br>
I'd be most happy to stop recalling that myself after 5
years ;-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</blockquote>
André,<br>
<br>
I think EPSG 4326 and 3857 are now available on all
webservices, since beginning of December : <br>
</blockquote>
¿¿¿¿¿ Where have you seen that, Julien ?????<br>
AFAICS there have been absolutely no changes with SPW servers in
December !!!!! ;-)))))<br>
The PPNC server still exhibits the 4326 bug.<br>
The ESRI server too. Additionally all its layers I tested have
been removed (error message instead of data).<br>
The PICC server probably too. But it's difficult to tell
because it no longer responds since about 6 months.<br>
Details below.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:52D92071.3030205@fastre.info" type="cite">You
may browse webservices from here : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services">http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services</a><br>
</blockquote>
I have been spying on that server for some time. I discovered
it by pure chance.<br>
That's an Arcgis server with, as you can see, <b>Supported
Interfaces:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services/?f=pjson">REST</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services?wsdl">SOAP</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services/?f=sitemap">Sitemap</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services/?f=geositemap">Geo
Sitemap</a> <br>
Let's call it Arcgis as I don't see any name for it.<br>
AFAICS, it could be configured with an additional WMS service
but it is not.<br>
Hence, it does not work with JOSM et al. <br>
It seems really hard to understand that JOSM et al. need WMS +
EPSG 4326 et al. !!! ;-)))))))<br>
Those who do not understand, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gditestbed.agiv.be/post/2011/11/16/Nieuwe-GRB-service-beschikbaar.aspx">please
look here</a>.<br>
Or will you explain your JOSM et al. configuration to display
(but not copy (yet)) SPW?<br>
<br>
In short, the PICC server used to be displayable (but not
copyable (yet)) only by those who could afford a re-projecting
proxy on their system and I had recommended to ask SPW to
support 4326 et al. in PICC for those who cannot. Did you ask?
Was the SPW reply stopping that server?<br>
<br>
Presently, the SPW <b>has removed all its services</b> that
were usable. Not quite what you say ;-)))))<br>
<br>
Another reason for asking is, as you probably know, that PICC is
of <b>much much much better quality</b> than new Arcgis.<br>
For example, PICC shows not only multiple tracks of a railway
line, but even <b>each rail</b> of each track, catenary
gantries and many such details. AFAICS, Arcgis shows only a
rough trace per line and, for example, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6094&mlon=5.5780#map=16/50.6094/5.5780&layers=N">the
Kinkempois yard</a> (a huge "gare de triage") <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/WalOnMap/#BBOX=235063.6615765241,236984.54041828174,144436.6995141131,145635.26441124288">is
completely empty</a> (even the line and the station) and <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6238&mlon=5.5672#map=16/50.6238/5.5672&layers=N">the
tracks and platforms of the Guillemins station</a> are <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/WalOnMap/#BBOX=234382.35813058395,235342.79755146278,146384.0367421209,146983.31919068578">totally
missing</a>, let alone speaking of the railway track that goes
across the streets and through the houses.<br>
The same holds for the streets and most features etc, I won't
dive into more details.<br>
PICC is really beyond compare with Arcgis.<br>
<br>
And as I noticed in one of your reports that SPW spoke of the
PICC server as of outdated valueless data (which is probably why
it's stopped), I suggested to ask SPW if they would allow us to
copy that valueless data. That would be tremendous for us to be
able to locate features precisely instead of approximately and
never come back to improve the precision.<br>
I suppose it was asked. Is the SPW answer really closing PICC
without notice?<br>
<br>
So, in short, the requests are:<br>
since 5 years: correct the 4326 bug<br>
new: keep the PICC server running<br>
let us copy its old data<br>
configure WMS to Arcgis (and make a new WMS announcement page)<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance,<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
More details...<br>
<br>
Let us recall that the <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cartographie.wallonie.be/NewPortailCarto/index.jsp?page=ProfDonnRefAccesWMS">SPW
WMS announcement is here</a>. It explains the benefits of WMS
etc. It is now overlaid with a text forbidding to talk about
the old WMS services (excuse me) but still letting use them.<br>
That overlay redirects to a replacement page that ... contains
no WMS at all !!! There is a gorgeous sentence "<span><span>-<span
style="font:7.0pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span></span>Si
vous ne trouvez pas sur le Géoportail de la Wallonie [Arcgis] un
contenu que vous aviez l’habitude de trouver sur l’ancien
portail, n’hésitez pas à <u><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/cms/home/contact.html"
target="_blank">nous contacter</a></u>." There is no hidden
camera.<br>
<br>
That page consists mainly of 3 servers whose URLs are incorrect
and not even links, better click here:<br>
<b>PPNC :</b> orthophotos<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cartopro1.wallonie.be/WMS/com.esri.wms.Esrimap/PPNC?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities">http://cartopro1.wallonie.be/WMS/com.esri.wms.Esrimap/PPNC?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities</a><br>
<b>PICC</b> : the interesting geographic data<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cartopro2.wallonie.be/wmsdnf/wms110.do?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities">http://cartopro2.wallonie.be/wmsdnf/wms110.do?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities</a><br>
<b>ESRI</b>: other interesting geographic data<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cartopro1.wallonie.be/WMS/com.esri.wms.Esrimap/portail?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities">http://cartopro1.wallonie.be/WMS/com.esri.wms.Esrimap/portail?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities</a><br>
<br>
All those servers are in principle free to use
(<Fees></Fees><AccessConstraints></AccessConstraints>,
Several people wrote to the SPW 5 years ago to confirm that: no
reply.<br>
But you came back from the SPW saying repeatedly that using
these servers is pirating, including the only remaining PPNC
photos that is at least 15 years old, probably 20 and maybe 25.<br>
Whatever their age, the PICC data was very useful to non pirates
to be used as intended by SPW : looked at in JOSM to compare
other maps (but not copy them (yet)).<br>
<br>
But I wrote to SPW 5 years ago that their capabilities indicated
EPSG 4326 but that it did not work (a bug) and there was no
reply. Hence, the SPW servers have been so far unusable with
JOSM simply.<br>
<br>
The SPW server evolution is as follows:<br>
PICC: simple case: that very interesting server no longer
responded for more than 6 months.<br>
ESRI: simple case too: it no longer contains the layers that its
Capabilities indicate.<br>
PPNC: only that forbidden 20 yo photos server remains.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:52D92071.3030205@fastre.info" type="cite">Here
can you find : <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:52D92071.3030205@fastre.info"
type="cite"><Layer><Title>Layers</Title><CRS>EPSG:4326</CRS><CRS>EPSG:3857</CRS><CRS>EPSG:31370</CRS><br>
</blockquote>
from : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/IMAGERIE/ORTHO_2012_2013/MapServer/WMSServer?request=GetCapabilities&service=WMS">http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/IMAGERIE/ORTHO_2012_2013/MapServer/WMSServer?request=GetCapabilities&service=WMS</a>
(capabilities of ORTHO 2012)<br>
</blockquote>
<tt>That's a new server to me</tt>. WMS + 4326 et al. indeed.<br>
That's the only one usable, but that's only photos.<br>
Free to use:
<Fees></Fees><AccessConstraints></AccessConstraints><br>
Where is the announcement page (maybe saying that we cannot copy
(yet))?<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>