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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-06-17 00:07, Jo wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Answers inline.<br>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-16 23:13 GMT+02:00 André
Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2014-06-16 01:58, Jo wrote :<br>
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
</div>
The conversion is done. Municipality
names are converted to lower case,
restoring the accents. Route_ref is
calculated.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
Many thanks Jo!<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You're welcome<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> A few remarks.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oh no! <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Should I drop the TEC project?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">As there were as
usual no replies on this list to my remarks about
missing bus line numbers and accent-less uppercased
place names, I wrote to the TEC myself. They
recognized my remarks as valid points and they said
that they will fix these problems, but no sooner than
September. I'll cc: you.<br>
<br>
I wonder if it wouldn't be wiser to "let's start !" in
September with that data rather than do it twice.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why would we be doing it twice? What they will
provide sometime after September should have exactly the
same contents as what my scripts are calculating from
the data they provide.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Anyway, I don't see why it was needed to bother TEC
with this. They provide the data as is and it's our
responsability to convert it to something we can work
with. I'm actually rather surprised you got a positive
answer from them.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I don't understand you.<br>
Don't you find interesting if they used our lowercase names and we
would just have to copy theirs in the future rather that have to
compare their new uppercase names with the previous uppercase names
to detect changes and make the corresponding changes in our
lowercase names?<br>
More generally, don't you think that cooperation to synchronize with
them is fruitful? If they know us, they might use our map and even,
why not, update it themselves. Don't you like that hope?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Whatever I try, I
see accent-less uppercased place names in your file.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What did you try? 2 files found their way into the
zip file. I hope you were looking at the most recent
one. I'm recreating them now. </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Like a ⅔ sized *.bz2 an *.osm.zip file is supposed to contain a
single *.osm to be loaded as such in JOSM.<br>
Rather than explaining what I did I wrote in the frame below a
skeleton of a procedure for the wiki.<br>
Failing other instructions, I acted logically with what you
announced as "The OSM file ...".<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>In the mean time it's possible to determine whether a
stop is new or not. i.e. if a stop with that ref is
already present in the Openstreetmap data I'm
downloading with Overpass.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Basing your comparison on the data will get you into trouble.<br>
How will you do in the future when both OSM and TEC data will
contain the same tags with possible different values because either
TEC corrected an error or OSM corrected an error that remains in
TEC?<br>
How will you know that the data has been updated?<br>
It's easy by using the source tags which are made for that and that
I recommend below.<br>
<br>
Now if you firmly intend not to use the source tag, PLEASE say it
because I'm in the process of proposing a wiki update to make this
easier with ISO dates and well explained and I would save me the
hassle.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">I thought that you
had found the line numbers, but I don't see them.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They are in the route_ref key. Where did you expect
to find them?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
In the route_ref key that I did not see.<br>
<br>
Plus, since beginning of May, I am asking if anyone saw line
numbers.<br>
Especially with the SPW viewer that does not work.<br>
The data is supposed to come in shape and corollary files in a zip
to be loaded right into JOSM.<br>
I did that. No line numbers I could see.<br>
I suppose TEC consider that the data must be simple to use (simply
by loading the shapefiles) and not by difficult trickery.<br>
I wrote that I found this:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I made the following TEC => OSM tag
conversion.<br>
POT_NOM_HA => name<br>
POT_ID => ref<br>
POT_ZONE_T => zone<br>
</blockquote>
<table border="3" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">There are two files containing TEC data.<br>
TEC_yyyy_mm.osm.bz2 containing the converted latest TEC
data.<br>
TEC_todo.osm.bz2 containing the data remaining to be moved
to OSM.<br>
<br>
Start JOSM and File>Download from OSM the area containing
the data you want to update.<br>
Be careful, especially when loading new OSM data, to always
have the correct layer selected.<br>
File>New Layer (getting selected)<br>
File>Open Location TEC_todo.osm.bz2 (loading TEC data to
it)<br>
Select TEC layer and choose and select a TEC stop to update,
usually a pair of.<br>
If it does not exist in OSM, Edit>Merge selection to OSM
layer.<br>
If it exists:<br>
Check if source=survey yyyy-mm equals TEC yyyy-mm<br>
yes: you can Copy all Keys/Values from TEC and
Edit>Paste tags them to OSM<br>
no: check for a Note explaining that a TEC value was
incorrect and Copy&Paste only the rest<br>
Be sure that survey yyyy-mm and TEC yyyy-mm are updated to
the new values:<br>
this is what is going to tell to remove the bus stop from
TEC_todo.osm.bz2<br>
Move the bus stop to the correct location, using Bing or
other map layer.<br>
Periodically update the OSM data, using "TEC buses update"
and checking that it updates what you've done.<br>
Loop for other stops.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
My file was displaying the lines (without number).
Yours not. Here is an additional layer to display
them.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I never saw your file before I started. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I wrote 6 messages about it and TEC without replies and you didn't
ask.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ty49nmfdb2vfz4m/TEC_2014_04-Lignes.2.osm.bz2</a></pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="">All that's missing at the
moment is comparison with existing data
already present in OSM. I'm already doing
that for the stops of De Lijn, so the
process exists. It merely needs to be
adapted a bit in the scripts I created.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class=""> I'm not adding source on the
objects anymore. Instead I add source tags
on the changeset as a whole.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
On one hand, using a source= tag is highly recommended
in the bus stops and lines, if not required.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's certainly not required. The tendency is towards
adding source on changesets nowadays. Look at buildings
in France to see what adding source on objects does.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Our wiki states that source is mandatory.<br>
I don't believe in changeset tags being able to otherwise than
fuzzily do what the source= with survey can do reliably.<br>
Plenty of reasons, including that they are not visible in JOSM, that
it's a hassle for the user to tag each and every update and to make
separate updates for any tag variation but that element tags are
automatic without user action, that errors are not correctable, that
<a href="https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Concepts/Changeset">JOSM
documentation</a> barely mentions only the comment tag, that <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source">OSM
documentation</a> has absolutely no howto documentation, etc etc.<br>
<br>
The French are mad. I mentioned on Tagging@osm that they tag the
same kilometer source on every node of a way as that on the way
itself and that mailing list did not seem to consider it's a
problem. Huffman is overworked ;-)<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> On the other, you
must of course be able to tell data that was added by
copying the elements of your file from OSM.org data
that existed before your publication and that must be
updated.<br>
It's not a matter of how <b>you</b> make updates and
tag change-sets, but of how <b>the mappers</b> will
do it.<br>
They'll File>Upload those updates the normal way,
without your change-sets tags, I don't know how to do
it.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>People are responsible for adding those changeset
tags themselves.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I don't think they will do it and that it's starting chaos.<br>
But chaos and fuzziness are the two udders of OSM, aren't they?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> If you use <b>source=survey
2014-06 TEC 2014-04</b> in bus stops as I
recommend, you will both comply with the source
requirement and be sure to find the indication that
they contain your file's data and can be deleted from
the remaining-to-be-updated file.<br>
If an existing element does not contain <b>source=survey
2014-06</b><b> TEC 2014-04</b> or later, it will be
kept in the remaining-to-be-updated file. If a mapper
further updates the data, he is kindly requested to
use a new date such as <b>source=survey 2014-07</b>
or <b>source=survey 2014-06-21</b> .</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sorry, it must be <b>source=survey 2014-04</b>.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>As for the operator, I prefer to use
simply TEC.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
No problem for me with <b>operator</b>, but (Sorry
Julien, fourth time) if you use <b>network</b>=<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://tec-wl.be"
target="_blank">tec-wl.be</a> that's not an URL and
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464"
target="_blank">that is not clickable here</a>
although we agreed using an URL (<b>network</b>=<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://tec-wl.be"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://tec-wl.be</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259"
target="_blank">which is clickable here</a>) then
please add website=<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tec-wl.be" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://tec-wl.be</a>.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't see the need to add network. Especially if it
would be duplicating what was already in operator. Which
entity the stop belongs to, can be determined in a
trivial way from the first letter of the ref of the stop
(for TEC, in the first digit for the stops of De Lijn).
That's what network could be used for, but it's not
needed.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I didn't speak of adding it. It was already there in the file you
published and <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC#Conventions_d.27encodage">our
wiki says</a><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Lorsque vous encodez les arrêts de bus "TEC", il est nécessaire
de renseigner les informations suivantes :
</p>
<ul>
<li> <tt style="background-color:#dde; white-space:pre;"
dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source"
title="Key:source">source</a>=tec-wl.be</tt> pour indiquer
la source de la donnée
</li>
<li> l'opérateur devrait être noté "tec-wl.be", indépendamment
du fait qu'il s'agisse du TEC Wallonie, du TEC Liège ou du TEC
Hoûte-si-plou : <tt style="background-color:#dde;
white-space:pre;" dir="ltr"><a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator"
title="Key:operator">operator</a>=tec-wl.be</tt>
</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class=""><br>
<br>
The OSM file with all the stops in Wallonia can be
found here:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/TEC.osm.zip"
target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/TEC.osm.zip</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
I think you should say that it must not be used for
updates right now.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As always, everybody can use it: 1. at their own risk
and on their own responsability, 2. by double checking
everything is correct before pressing upload. That's
what I'm doing at the moment.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>For all the stops I'm adding, I'm double checking the
position and the tags. It's not a matter of simply bulk
uploading them. If it were that simple, I could simply
do it in one go.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Without any user instructions?<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>What we still need to discuss:<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
The topics mentioned above and
<div class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Is it OK to keep the zones as 4 digits? For
me it's better, as it makes them unique. It's
not what can be read at the stops in the
streets though (There you'll find the last 2
digits).<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
I find the 4 digits all-right because if you don't
want to see the first two you just close your left eye
but if they weren't there and if you wanted to see
them it wouldn't be possible ;-)<br>
What do the left two digits mean? Wouldn't that be
the place for the line number? Following "be.wa."?<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As is often the case. I don't know what you are
talking about. The first 2 digits of the zone number are
obviously a way to group zones which are in the same
region.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
An "area" is a undetermined concept and if a zone is a number of
stops for which you pay the same price, then I find natural to group
them by line number which is a well determined concept.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMBUmw5iAPQ+sLB6UdGg0GQY1tuPrk=pAS_NbOQVKfei=Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>I found a new 'problem'. I started adding/editing
stops for buses of TEC which start at Brussels south
station.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>123, 124 and W are from the Brabant-Wallon entity<br>
</div>
<div>365a is from the Charleroi entity.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>All these stops have 2 refs from TEC, so I consider
them as 2 stops which are located at the same position
representing them with separate nodes, as I had started
doing for De Lijn and MIVB/STIB. The result is that some
stops are now split into 4 nodes.<br>
<br>
I consider this necessary to make maintenance feasible.
But the least one can say, is that it looks odd...<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>I didn't upload yet, so I don't have an example at
the moment. It's quite a bit of work, so it might take
me days rather than hours.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
As is often the case. I don't know what you are talking about.<br>
Two bus stops from the same operator at the same place sound like a
bug. If you don't see why it is needed to bother TEC with reporting
this bug and/or asking what to do, then they provide the data as is
and it's our responsibility to convert it to something we can work
with.<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
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