<div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><also for the link your page explaining connectivity:lane. I had not heard about that one before.</div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">but now I have to go over all my work of the past few months to add that tag where needed :-)></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">since a lot (> 98%?) of the crossings are simple in terms of destination (like: when you go left you're driving towards Antwerp) and thus have obvious connectivity, a relation like connectivity:lane will not be needed often. There is no standard yet for tagging non-obvious connectivity. Please let me know if you think you have found a situation where non-obvious connectivity occurs.</div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><What I mean with splitting the outgoing road, is how far do we want the destination to extend: til the next crossing, even when that is kilometers away ? or the other extreme, split the street after a few meters, so that future mappers won't split the street further on, and still keep the destination tag on both segments ?></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Having destination info on way segments is just needed to provide information to the driver. Therefore, I would from a practical point of view limit this destination data to situations close to junctions. This will also avoid using the forward and backward destination tagging. The exact length is I think not so important. I would just use the first segment available regardless of its length.</div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><So you won't add lanes:destination before the crossing ? (just to make sure)</div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">No, not in this situation. That would only be needed in situations where there is a difference in destinations immediately áfter the crossing (the left lane directly after the crossing going to destination x, the right lane immediately after the crossing going to destination y)</div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><What I meant is that Google is only allowed to copyright artwork, not facts nor even some pictures or parts thereof representing facts like road signs. I don't see why you need copying pictures to build destination tags.><br></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">The DWG is clear on using contents of Google's photos: <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-April/007750.html">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-April/007750.html</a>. Luckily, However, Mapillary can be used: <a href="http://www.mapillary.com/osm.html">http://www.mapillary.com/osm.html</a>. All it takes for Google (being the nice company they are) is start using the same words: <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:20.7999992370605px;background-color:rgb(255,252,245)">For the purpose of contributing metadata to OpenStreetMap, we allow anyone to derive metadata from our photos.</span></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:20.7999992370605px;background-color:rgb(255,252,245)"><br></span></div><div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Cheers, Johan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-09-12 15:28 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2014-09-11 00:27, Johan C wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"><span class="">Hi André<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><<span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">OSM
GPS routers use </span><tt dir="ltr" style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination" title="Key:destination" target="_blank">destination</a>=*</tt><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> not
to compute the routes, they can do without, but to
know what the drivers see on the signs in order to use
the same information in spoken instructions></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
</span>
</span><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">That's
correct<br>
<br>
</span><span class=""><span>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><Shouldn't
the same </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)"></span><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref" title="Key:ref" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px" target="_blank"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)">ref=*</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> as
of the motorway be used on all</span><tt> </tt><tt dir="ltr" style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway" title="Key:highway" target="_blank">highway</a>=<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link" title="Tag:highway=motorway link" target="_blank">motorway_link</a></tt><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">?></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
</span>
</span><div><span class=""><font face="arial, sans-serif"><b>If the motorway
link has these signs</b>, they can be used.<br>
<br>
</font></span><span class=""><span>
<div><b style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><there
is no name to use</b><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> for
a GPS to call a motorway entrance.></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>The OSM situation should <b>reflect current
signage</b>: if there are no signs, the destination
tag should not be used</div>
<span></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
So, I had correctly understood despite that, as unfortunately often
the case, the key definition is very badly stated (the proof of that
is that the French and German translators have got it and translated
totally wrong). So, I made the following change to the wiki:<br>
Old:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The key <b>destination</b> describes the
destination of the way by using the name of the city the way is
heading to, which is explicitly indicated in a signpost or
similiar on the ground.
</blockquote>
New:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">So that GPS-like software can refer to road
signs that the driver actually sees, the key <tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><strong>destination</strong>=*</tt> describes the
contents of signposts or ground writing indicating the names of
the cities that the way on which the key is tagged is leading to.</blockquote>
It is worth spending time to precisely write definitions.<br>
It avoids many map mistakes needing much more time to fix and makes
a much better OSM.<span class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"><span>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><I'm
not sure you can copy the pictures></span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
</span>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Google
is a nice company, but they are not open. Their terms
prohibit copying contents pictures. But all it takes to
get lane assistant in Belgium is a few people who access
motorways every now and then taking pictures of the
signs.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></span>
What I meant is that Google is only allowed to copyright artwork,
not facts nor even some pictures or parts thereof representing facts
like road signs. I don't see why you need copying pictures to build
destination tags.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"><span>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
</span><span></span><span></span>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Cheers, Johan</font></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-09-10 23:30 GMT+02:00
André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2014-09-09 22:14, Johan C wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span>In Nederland heb ik de
snelwegen op veel plaatsen voorzien van
bestemmingen. Als bijrijder ben ik in de
gelegenheid geweest om afgelopen maand de
bebording op de route
Breda-Antwerpen-Gent-Kortrijk-Lille vice
versa te fotograferen. Die wil ik graag op
de manier zoals ik die in Nederland heb
getagd gaan taggen. Dat houdt het volgende
in: </span>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">In the Netherlands I
have the highways in many places equipped
destinations. As a passenger, I had the
opportunity to be on the route
Breda-Antwerp-Ghent-Kortrijk-Lille to
photograph. Past month the boarding vice
versa I would like the way I tagged in the
Netherlands go tag them. That means the
following:</blockquote>
</div>
<span>
<div>- invoeren destination details conform
de werkwijze op <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details</a>,
inclusief het invoeren van het afritnummer
met de tag junction:ref</div>
</span>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">- Enter destination
details according to the procedure on <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details</a>,
including entering the exit number
junction with the tag: ref</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<span>
<div>- het positioneren van de
motorway_junction conform <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit</a>,
oftewel juist voor de doorgetrokken streep</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">- het positioneren
van de motorway_junction conform <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit</a>,
oftewel juist voor de doorgetrokken
streep</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>Het mooie van het toevoegen van de
destinations is dat dit een stap is om een
rijstrookassistent te krijgen in OSM. Mijn
op OSM gebaaseerde Garmin is al in staat
om de bestemmingen niet alleen weer te
geven maar ook uit te spreken, wat erg
handig is in drukke verkeerssituaties.
Diverse andere OSM routeringsprogramma's
ondersteunen de bestemmingen eveneens.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ik wil graag meehelpen om ook andere
Belgische snelwegen te voorzien van de
bestemmingen, maar op sommige Belgische
snelwegen kom ik erg weinig tot nooit.
Zouden jullie kunnen helpen door het nemen
van foto's van de bebording cq het opnemen
van ritten op de snelwegen met een
dashcam?</div>
</span>
<blockquote type="cite">The beauty of adding
destinations is that this is a step to get
into OSM. Lane guidance My OFM gebaaseerde
Garmin has been able to show the
destinations not only weather but also to
speak, which is very convenient in traffic
situations. Various other OSM routing
programs also support the destinations. <br>
<br>
I would like to also help provide the
destinations, other Belgian motorways but
some Belgian highways I get very little or
never. Could you help by taking pictures of
the signage or the inclusion of journeys on
motorways with a dashcam?</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
Hi Johan,<br>
<br>
As I understand it (1) OSM GPS routers use <tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination" title="Key:destination" target="_blank">destination</a>=*</tt>
not to compute the routes, they can do without,
but to know what the drivers see on the signs in
order to use the same information in spoken
instructions (e. g. call a lane by its destination
if possible). Similarly for <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref" title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr">ref=*</tt></a> and <tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name" target="_blank">name</a>=*.<br>
</tt><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
</span>I did not understand every word you wrote,
but it looks like you want the content of the
Destination signposting. They are all here on <a href="https://maps.google.be/maps?" target="_blank">Google Street View</a>. I'm not
sure you can copy the pictures, but pictures is
not what is necessary for OSM: what is written on
the road signs is legal information and cannot be
copyrighted.<br>
<br>
<span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">My
survey.<br>
<br>
On E25.<br>
</span><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination" title="Key:destination" target="_blank">destination</a>=*</tt>
is not used<span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">
anywhere and </span><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref" title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a>
is <b>not used</b> on<tt> </tt><tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway" title="Key:highway" target="_blank">highway</a>=<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link" title="Tag:highway=motorway link" target="_blank">motorway_link</a></tt>.<br>
Hence, <b>there is no name to use</b> for a GPS
to call a motorway entrance.<br>
For motorway exits, such a ref is useless but <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref" title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a>
is used all-right on <tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway" title="Key:highway" target="_blank">highway</a>=<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_junction" title="Tag:highway=motorway junction" target="_blank">motorway_junction</a></tt><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">.<br>
</span><br>
<table border="3" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Shouldn't the same <span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref" title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a>
as of the motorway be used on all<tt> </tt><tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway" title="Key:highway" target="_blank">highway</a>=<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link" title="Tag:highway=motorway link" target="_blank">motorway_link</a></tt>?</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
On other major highways.<br>
<tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name" title="Key:name" target="_blank">name</a>=*</tt>
is used but the driver sees no (real) signs
(plates) for it.<br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref" title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a>
is almost always present but the road sign (e.g.
N30) is sometimes missing on the ground, which is
annoying for the driver in a roundabout or at the
fork to two main directions.<br>
<br>
I tried to contact the MET to report a few such
cases, but they did not reply.<br>
<b>Does anyone know</b> how to signal the MET
their mistakes or should we tag for the minister?<br>
<br>
On 2014-09-10 10:12, Sander Deryckere wrote :<span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">destination:lanes=Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach|Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach;Graz;Wien|Graz;Wien<br>
destination:ref:lanes=A5|A5;S1;A2|S1;A2<br>
destination:country:lanes=CZ|CZ;SK;H;SLO;I|SK;H;SLO;I<br>
destination:symbol:lanes=|airport|airport<br>
<br>
Are we really trying to hang ourselves?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Let us think before such an extreme
outcome :-)<br>
<br>
I'm not a lanes specialist, but it seems to me
that lane drawing topology is enough for routing
software to know and tell the driver which of the
lanes (n°1, n°2, n°3) to take to get to another
lane ahead.<br>
So, the question is: what should the GPS tell the
driver (click, choose language, click
loudspeaker):<br>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%0AGraz%3BWien%3B%0AS1%3BA2%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3BHungary%3BSlovenia%3BItaly%3B%0Aairport%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%0ABrno%3BPoysdorf%3BMistelbach%3B%0AA5%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3B" target="_blank">That ???</a></li>
<li><a href="https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%20S1%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%20A5" target="_blank">or this ???</a></li>
</ul>
Is it really necessary to make a mess by trying to
spell/translate every place in/to every language
(2)?<br>
Isn't it wiser to use only the (ref) numbering
system devised and used for everybody's
convenience?<br>
That's including OSM.<br>
I think that just the destination:ref is
necessary, and only if it cannot be derived from
topology.<br>
The names on the signs are for those who drive
without GPS and as a reassuring double check.<br>
Or in the rare cases there would be no refs.<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Anyway, that said, I'll never map
anything with the :lanes extension myself,
nor will I edit any such tag, but I you're
willing to go through that painful process,
I won't stop you.<br>
<br>
</div>
(oh, and if you want cooperation for all
Belgian highways, better also put your message
in English or French).<br>
</blockquote>
</span> It worked ;-)<br>
<br>
(1) they can do without them. This is
unfortunately badly explained once again.<br>
(2) I usually listen to Osmand in English.<br>
Easier to understand (must be my ear too) and
sounding like navigating to the moon (add beeps).<br>
But the real fun is trying to understand French
names pronounced à la English !!! :-)<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div style="max-width:400px;max-height:352px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>Dutch - detected</li>
<li>English</li>
<li>French</li>
<li>Russian</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0px">
<li>English</li>
<li>French</li>
<li>Russian</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<textarea></textarea></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
</div></div><span class=""><pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>