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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-09-19 15:40, Johan C wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD=7VosccOs6_mjpqQr47DhXL4bWsceBkN6E-Oc3tiow+ay_ZQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><also
for the link your page explaining connectivity:lane. I had not
heard about that one before.</div>
..
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><What
I mean with splitting the outgoing road, is how far do we want
the destination to extend: til the next crossing, even when
that is <br>
...<br>
<So you won't add lanes:destination before the crossing ?
(just to make sure)</div>
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">...<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Please make correct quoting. I never said that.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD=7VosccOs6_mjpqQr47DhXL4bWsceBkN6E-Oc3tiow+ay_ZQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><What
I meant is that Google is only allowed to copyright artwork,
not facts ...><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">The DWG
is clear on using contents of Google's photos: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-April/007750.html">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-April/007750.html</a>.
Luckily, However, Mapillary can be used: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mapillary.com/osm.html">http://www.mapillary.com/osm.html</a>.
All it takes for Google (being the nice company they are) is
start using the same words: <span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:20.7999992370605px;background-color:rgb(255,252,245)">For
the purpose of contributing metadata to OpenStreetMap, we
allow anyone to derive metadata from our photos.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Please understand that I do not speak about what Google says but
that I explain that they are not (legally) allowed to copyright
facts. For example, they cannot prevent a map showing a 60 km/h
limit on some road because they published a photograph of a road
sign on it.<br>
If you believe they can, "the DWG is not as clear" as you say.<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD=7VosccOs6_mjpqQr47DhXL4bWsceBkN6E-Oc3tiow+ay_ZQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:20.7999992370605px;background-color:rgb(255,252,245)"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Cheers,
Johan</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-09-12 15:28 GMT+02:00 André Pirard
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2014-09-11 00:27, Johan C wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"><span class="">Hi André<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><<span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">OSM
GPS routers use </span><tt dir="ltr"
style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination"
title="Key:destination" target="_blank">destination</a>=*</tt><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> not to compute the
routes, they can do without, but to know
what the drivers see on the signs in order
to use the same information in spoken
instructions></span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
</span> </span>
<div><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">That's
correct<br>
<br>
</span><span class=""><span>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><Shouldn't
the same </span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)"></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref"
title="Key:ref"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"
target="_blank"><span
style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)">ref=*</span></a><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> as of the motorway
be used on all</span><tt> </tt><tt
dir="ltr"
style="white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(221,221,238)"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway"
title="Key:highway" target="_blank">highway</a>=<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link"
title="Tag:highway=motorway link"
target="_blank">motorway_link</a></tt><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">?></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
</span> </span>
<div><span class=""><font face="arial,
sans-serif"><b>If the motorway link has
these signs</b>, they can be used.<br>
<br>
</font></span><span class=""><span>
<div><b
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><there
is no name to use</b><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> for
a GPS to call a motorway entrance.></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>The OSM situation should <b>reflect
current signage</b>: if there are no
signs, the destination tag should not be
used</div>
<span></span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
So, I had correctly understood despite that, as
unfortunately often the case, the key definition is very
badly stated (the proof of that is that the French and
German translators have got it and translated totally
wrong). So, I made the following change to the wiki:<br>
Old:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The key <b>destination</b>
describes the destination of the way by using the name
of the city the way is heading to, which is explicitly
indicated in a signpost or similiar on the ground. </blockquote>
New:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">So that GPS-like software can
refer to road signs that the driver actually sees, the
key <tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><strong>destination</strong>=*</tt>
describes the contents of signposts or ground writing
indicating the names of the cities that the way on which
the key is tagged is leading to.</blockquote>
It is worth spending time to precisely write definitions.<br>
It avoids many map mistakes needing much more time to fix
and makes a much better OSM.<span class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"><span>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><I'm
not sure you can copy the pictures></span><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
</span>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Google
is a nice company, but they are not open.
Their terms prohibit copying contents
pictures. But all it takes to get lane
assistant in Belgium is a few people who
access motorways every now and then taking
pictures of the signs.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span> What I meant is that Google is only allowed to
copyright artwork, not facts nor even some pictures or
parts thereof representing facts like road signs. I don't
see why you need copying pictures to build destination
tags.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"><span>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div>
</span><span></span><span></span>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Cheers,
Johan</font></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-09-10 23:30
GMT+02:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com"
target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2014-09-09 22:14, Johan C
wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span>In Nederland
heb ik de snelwegen op veel
plaatsen voorzien van
bestemmingen. Als bijrijder
ben ik in de gelegenheid
geweest om afgelopen maand de
bebording op de route
Breda-Antwerpen-Gent-Kortrijk-Lille
vice versa te fotograferen.
Die wil ik graag op de manier
zoals ik die in Nederland heb
getagd gaan taggen. Dat houdt
het volgende in: </span>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">In the
Netherlands I have the
highways in many places
equipped destinations. As a
passenger, I had the
opportunity to be on the
route
Breda-Antwerp-Ghent-Kortrijk-Lille
to photograph. Past month
the boarding vice versa I
would like the way I tagged
in the Netherlands go tag
them. That means the
following:</blockquote>
</div>
<span>
<div>- invoeren destination
details conform de werkwijze
op <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details"
target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details</a>,
inclusief het invoeren van
het afritnummer met de tag
junction:ref</div>
</span>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">-
Enter destination details
according to the procedure
on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details"
target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details</a>,
including entering the exit
number junction with the
tag: ref</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<span>
<div>- het positioneren van de
motorway_junction conform <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit"
target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit</a>,
oftewel juist voor de
doorgetrokken streep</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">-
het positioneren van de
motorway_junction conform <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit"
target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit</a>,
oftewel juist voor de
doorgetrokken streep</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>Het mooie van het
toevoegen van de
destinations is dat dit een
stap is om een
rijstrookassistent te
krijgen in OSM. Mijn op OSM
gebaaseerde Garmin is al in
staat om de bestemmingen
niet alleen weer te geven
maar ook uit te spreken, wat
erg handig is in drukke
verkeerssituaties. Diverse
andere OSM
routeringsprogramma's
ondersteunen de bestemmingen
eveneens.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ik wil graag meehelpen om
ook andere Belgische
snelwegen te voorzien van de
bestemmingen, maar op
sommige Belgische snelwegen
kom ik erg weinig tot nooit.
Zouden jullie kunnen helpen
door het nemen van foto's
van de bebording cq het
opnemen van ritten op de
snelwegen met een dashcam?</div>
</span>
<blockquote type="cite">The
beauty of adding destinations
is that this is a step to get
into OSM. Lane guidance My OFM
gebaaseerde Garmin has been
able to show the destinations
not only weather but also to
speak, which is very
convenient in traffic
situations. Various other OSM
routing programs also support
the destinations. <br>
<br>
I would like to also help
provide the destinations,
other Belgian motorways but
some Belgian highways I get
very little or never. Could
you help by taking pictures of
the signage or the inclusion
of journeys on motorways with
a dashcam?</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
Hi Johan,<br>
<br>
As I understand it (1) OSM GPS
routers use <tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination"
title="Key:destination"
target="_blank">destination</a>=*</tt>
not to compute the routes, they can
do without, but to know what the
drivers see on the signs in order to
use the same information in spoken
instructions (e. g. call a lane by
its destination if possible).
Similarly for <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref"
title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr">ref=*</tt></a>
and <tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name"
title="Key:name" target="_blank">name</a>=*.<br>
</tt><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>
</span>I did not understand every
word you wrote, but it looks like
you want the content of the
Destination signposting. They are
all here on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://maps.google.be/maps?"
target="_blank">Google Street View</a>.
I'm not sure you can copy the
pictures, but pictures is not what
is necessary for OSM: what is
written on the road signs is legal
information and cannot be
copyrighted.<br>
<br>
<span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">My
survey.<br>
<br>
On E25.<br>
</span><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination"
title="Key:destination"
target="_blank">destination</a>=*</tt>
is not used<span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">
anywhere and </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref"
title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a> is <b>not
used</b> on<tt> </tt><tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway"
title="Key:highway"
target="_blank">highway</a>=<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link"
title="Tag:highway=motorway
link" target="_blank">motorway_link</a></tt>.<br>
Hence, <b>there is no name to use</b>
for a GPS to call a motorway
entrance.<br>
For motorway exits, such a ref is
useless but <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref"
title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a> is
used all-right on <tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway"
title="Key:highway"
target="_blank">highway</a>=<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_junction"
title="Tag:highway=motorway
junction" target="_blank">motorway_junction</a></tt><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">.<br>
</span><br>
<table border="3" cellpadding="2"
cellspacing="2">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">Shouldn't the
same <span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"></span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref"
title="Key:ref"
target="_blank"><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a>
as of the motorway be used
on all<tt> </tt><tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway"
title="Key:highway"
target="_blank">highway</a>=<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link"
title="Tag:highway=motorway
link" target="_blank">motorway_link</a></tt>?</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
On other major highways.<br>
<tt
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name"
title="Key:name" target="_blank">name</a>=*</tt>
is used but the driver sees no
(real) signs (plates) for it.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref"
title="Key:ref" target="_blank"><span
style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap">ref=*</span></a> is
almost always present but the road
sign (e.g. N30) is sometimes missing
on the ground, which is annoying for
the driver in a roundabout or at the
fork to two main directions.<br>
<br>
I tried to contact the MET to report
a few such cases, but they did not
reply.<br>
<b>Does anyone know</b> how to
signal the MET their mistakes or
should we tag for the minister?<br>
<br>
On 2014-09-10 10:12, Sander
Deryckere wrote :<span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">destination:lanes=Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach|Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach;Graz;Wien|Graz;Wien<br>
destination:ref:lanes=A5|A5;S1;A2|S1;A2<br>
destination:country:lanes=CZ|CZ;SK;H;SLO;I|SK;H;SLO;I<br>
destination:symbol:lanes=|airport|airport<br>
<br>
Are we really trying to hang
ourselves?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Let us think before such an
extreme outcome :-)<br>
<br>
I'm not a lanes specialist, but it
seems to me that lane drawing
topology is enough for routing
software to know and tell the driver
which of the lanes (n°1, n°2, n°3)
to take to get to another lane
ahead.<br>
So, the question is: what should the
GPS tell the driver (click, choose
language, click loudspeaker):<br>
<ul>
<li><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%0AGraz%3BWien%3B%0AS1%3BA2%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3BHungary%3BSlovenia%3BItaly%3B%0Aairport%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%0ABrno%3BPoysdorf%3BMistelbach%3B%0AA5%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3B"
target="_blank">That ???</a></li>
<li><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%20S1%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%20A5"
target="_blank">or this ???</a></li>
</ul>
Is it really necessary to make a
mess by trying to spell/translate
every place in/to every language
(2)?<br>
Isn't it wiser to use only the (ref)
numbering system devised and used
for everybody's convenience?<br>
That's including OSM.<br>
I think that just the
destination:ref is necessary, and
only if it cannot be derived from
topology.<br>
The names on the signs are for those
who drive without GPS and as a
reassuring double check.<br>
Or in the rare cases there would be
no refs.<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Anyway, that said, I'll
never map anything with the
:lanes extension myself, nor
will I edit any such tag, but
I you're willing to go through
that painful process, I won't
stop you.<br>
<br>
</div>
(oh, and if you want cooperation
for all Belgian highways, better
also put your message in English
or French).<br>
</blockquote>
</span> It worked ;-)<br>
<br>
(1) they can do without them. This
is unfortunately badly explained
once again.<br>
(2) I usually listen to Osmand in
English.<br>
Easier to understand (must be my ear
too) and sounding like navigating to
the moon (add beeps).<br>
But the real fun is trying to
understand French names pronounced à
la English !!! :-)<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div
style="max-width:400px;max-height:352px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>Dutch - detected</li>
<li>English</li>
<li>French</li>
<li>Russian</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0px">
<li>English</li>
<li>French</li>
<li>Russian</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<textarea></textarea></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<span class="">
<pre>_______________________________________________
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
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