<div dir="ltr">On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com" target="_blank">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright. There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here. Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br><br></div>We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br><br></div>The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part" or even "a database" is.<br><br>However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br><br><ul><li>A collection of different records: there are different streets with data<br></li><li>Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is the intended purpose of this map)<br></li></ul><p>The Sui Generis right protects</p><ul><li>qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of streets is complete, and the information about those streets is complete</li><li>substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess that governments just shouldn't have any servants.</li></ul></div></blockquote><div>Read <a href="http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035">http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035</a><br><br>"Ook het begrip ‘investering in de presentatie van de inhoud van een
gegevensverzameling’ moet beperkt worden uitgelegd. Niet alle kosten
voor de presentatie vallen daaronder, maar alleen die kosten die worden
gemaakt om de databank de gegevens te kunnen laten verwerken."<br><br></div><div>And further:<br>"De door [A] ten slotte nog genoemde kosten voor het drukken van de
handleidingen met de normtabellen (€ 3.000,-) en de tijdsbesteding voor
de opname van de normgegevens uit de tabellen in P2O (volgens [A] twee
weken fulltime werk per test), zijn naar het oordeel van de rechtbank -
in verhouding tot de kosten van de ontwikkeling van een test in zijn
geheel - niet als substantieel aan te merken"<br><br></div><div>Would it really be more than 3000 Euros plus 2 weeks of a full-time employee to put these data in a GIS database?<br><br></div><div>For more examples, the following were considered NOT to have a considerable investment (or at least, the companies behind them not to have shown considerable investment) by the Dutch judges:<br></div><div>* The Dutch public broadcasting company's database of programs and their data<br></div><div>* RyanAir's database of all its flight data<br><br></div><div>THOSE are the kinds of database the discussion is about. NOT a map with some roads coloured and a legenda.<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p>So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge that this is a violation to the database rights.<br></p></div></blockquote><div>If he hasn't laughed you away already, he will very easily say that no, this is not a protected database.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p> </p><p>Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can compare the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just importing mistakes.</p></div></blockquote><div>Best is the enemy of good. Yes, surveyed data is better than imported, and combined data is better than either. But that's only the case if you have the choice. Imported data is better than no data. It is also better than data you know to be wrong. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p>As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.</p></div></blockquote><div> There is no legally grey zone here. You are creating it yourself.<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><p>May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br></p></div></blockquote><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Now, that's a jump. From picking a few points of data from another source than your own eyes to wholesale copying of another source... If the only way to keep people from breaking database rights is by increasing its extend into the ridiculous and then once more, maybe the time has come to just stop using volunteers for this project.<br><br><span><font color="#888888"><br>
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</font></span></div></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature">André Engels, <a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com">andreengels@gmail.com</a><br></div>
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