<div dir="ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Sorry that you got dragged into this discussion but it pops up sometimes... </div><div><br></div><div>In short: When you are not sure don't use the map as a source. When you have permission from the author just put that permission up on the OSM-wiki.</div><div><br></div><div>More information is here:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission</a></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Happy Mapping,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Ben</div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:40 PM, hvdb <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:henke54@gmail.com" target="_blank">henke54@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div>my my ... what a 'discussion' over such a 'simple asking' .... ;P <br></div>so ... if i could get a map or some info, what should one do then, so that it is ' legal' ... get a 'stamp' on such a map/papers , or something else ?<br></div>Also ... how should one post/map such map/info on OSM, to proof that it is 'OK' for the people of the city hall ?<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-02-01 16:26 GMT+01:00 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-be mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time?<br>
(Sander Deryckere)<br>
2. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels)<br>
3. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:18:59 +0100<br>
From: Sander Deryckere <<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com" target="_blank">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking<br>
time?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CABUOUO8SrRODVgL5iUi4CufUSVAHc2FwkDt177bK5NWkYTW-Rg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CABUOUO8SrRODVgL5iUi4CufUSVAHc2FwkDt177bK5NWkYTW-Rg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright.<br>
There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here.<br>
Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br>
<br>
We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br>
<br>
The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials<br>
that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"<br>
or even "a database" is.<br>
<br>
However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br>
<br>
<br>
- A collection of different records: there are different streets with<br>
data<br>
- Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a<br>
single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is<br>
the intended purpose of this map)<br>
<br>
The Sui Generis right protects<br>
<br>
- qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of<br>
streets is complete, and the information about those streets is complete<br>
- substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification<br>
or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The<br>
information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the<br>
municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering<br>
that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's<br>
similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess<br>
that governments just shouldn't have any servants.<br>
<br>
Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is given)<br>
the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a substantial<br>
part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's again both,<br>
since the information offered by the council is most likely of high<br>
quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high quantity.<br>
<br>
So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge<br>
that this is a violation to the database rights,<br>
<br>
<br>
Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is<br>
just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can compare<br>
the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining<br>
those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just importing<br>
mistakes.<br>
<br>
As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more<br>
strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such<br>
advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally<br>
grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's<br>
not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.<br>
<br>
May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just claimed<br>
they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result,<br>
brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. Microsoft<br>
even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from<br>
their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say<br>
Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google)<br>
because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be copyrighted,<br>
so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander<br>
<br>
2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
> Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and especially<br>
> the law.<br>
> The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not required<br>
> to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by one if<br>
> what you see on the map is correct.<br>
> Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not<br>
> where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you cannot<br>
> reproduce).<br>
> Same for the boundaries etc.<br>
><br>
> André.<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-be mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
><br>
><br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 15:12:22 +0100<br>
From: Andre Engels <<a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com" target="_blank">andreengels@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking<br>
time?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAGzCZ0qqPONcBaOWQ2CMUmZ1S3DA8UK9NofOxqXvWH6kCPsvmw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAGzCZ0qqPONcBaOWQ2CMUmZ1S3DA8UK9NofOxqXvWH6kCPsvmw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
<br>
On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com" target="_blank">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright. There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here. Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br>
><br>
> We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br>
><br>
> The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part" or even "a database" is.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br>
><br>
> A collection of different records: there are different streets with data<br>
> Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is the intended purpose of this map)<br>
><br>
> The Sui Generis right protects<br>
><br>
> qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of streets is complete, and the information about those streets is complete<br>
> substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess that governments just shouldn't have any servants.<br>
><br>
> Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is given) the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a substantial part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's again both, since the information offered by the council is most likely of high quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high quantity.<br>
><br>
> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge that this is a violation to the database rights,<br>
><br>
><br>
> Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can compare the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just importing mistakes.<br>
><br>
> As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.<br>
><br>
> May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
> Sander<br>
><br>
><br>
> 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>><br>
>> Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and especially the law.<br>
>> The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not required to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by one if what you see on the map is correct.<br>
>> Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you cannot reproduce).<br>
>> Same for the boundaries etc.<br>
>><br>
>> André.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Talk-be mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Talk-be mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
André Engels, <a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com" target="_blank">andreengels@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:25:53 +0100<br>
From: Andre Engels <<a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com" target="_blank">andreengels@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking<br>
time?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAGzCZ0pExrafZt+f9QO_9r7dJMLd+KssDQ1f=<a href="mailto:Tmgva4yxn0EOQ@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">Tmgva4yxn0EOQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com" target="_blank">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright.<br>
> There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here.<br>
> Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br>
><br>
> We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<br>
> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br>
><br>
> The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials<br>
> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"<br>
> or even "a database" is.<br>
><br>
> However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br>
><br>
><br>
> - A collection of different records: there are different streets with<br>
> data<br>
> - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a<br>
> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is<br>
> the intended purpose of this map)<br>
><br>
> The Sui Generis right protects<br>
><br>
> - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of<br>
> streets is complete, and the information about those streets is complete<br>
> - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification<br>
> or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The<br>
> information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the<br>
> municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering<br>
> that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's<br>
> similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess<br>
> that governments just shouldn't have any servants.<br>
><br>
> Read<br>
<a href="http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035" target="_blank">http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035</a><br>
<br>
"Ook het begrip ‘investering in de presentatie van de inhoud van een<br>
gegevensverzameling’ moet beperkt worden uitgelegd. Niet alle kosten voor<br>
de presentatie vallen daaronder, maar alleen die kosten die worden gemaakt<br>
om de databank de gegevens te kunnen laten verwerken."<br>
<br>
And further:<br>
"De door [A] ten slotte nog genoemde kosten voor het drukken van de<br>
handleidingen met de normtabellen (€ 3.000,-) en de tijdsbesteding voor de<br>
opname van de normgegevens uit de tabellen in P2O (volgens [A] twee weken<br>
fulltime werk per test), zijn naar het oordeel van de rechtbank - in<br>
verhouding tot de kosten van de ontwikkeling van een test in zijn geheel -<br>
niet als substantieel aan te merken"<br>
<br>
Would it really be more than 3000 Euros plus 2 weeks of a full-time<br>
employee to put these data in a GIS database?<br>
<br>
For more examples, the following were considered NOT to have a considerable<br>
investment (or at least, the companies behind them not to have shown<br>
considerable investment) by the Dutch judges:<br>
* The Dutch public broadcasting company's database of programs and their<br>
data<br>
* RyanAir's database of all its flight data<br>
<br>
THOSE are the kinds of database the discussion is about. NOT a map with<br>
some roads coloured and a legenda.<br>
<br>
So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge<br>
> that this is a violation to the database rights.<br>
><br>
If he hasn't laughed you away already, he will very easily say that no,<br>
this is not a protected database.<br>
<br>
<br>
> Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is<br>
> just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can compare<br>
> the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining<br>
> those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just importing<br>
> mistakes.<br>
><br>
Best is the enemy of good. Yes, surveyed data is better than imported, and<br>
combined data is better than either. But that's only the case if you have<br>
the choice. Imported data is better than no data. It is also better than<br>
data you know to be wrong.<br>
<br>
> As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more<br>
> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such<br>
> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally<br>
> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's<br>
> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.<br>
><br>
There is no legally grey zone here. You are creating it yourself.<br>
<br>
> May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just<br>
> claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a<br>
> result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft.<br>
> Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold<br>
> than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our<br>
> data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e.<br>
> Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be<br>
> copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br>
><br>
Now, that's a jump. From picking a few points of data from another source<br>
than your own eyes to wholesale copying of another source... If the only<br>
way to keep people from breaking database rights is by increasing its<br>
extend into the ridiculous and then once more, maybe the time has come to<br>
just stop using volunteers for this project.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
André Engels, <a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com" target="_blank">andreengels@gmail.com</a><br>
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