<div dir="ltr">In my town , it is mostly the 'INFO Office' (=Tourisme Office) , which makes/distributes/publishes flyers/maps with info about traffic/tourism and so on, ... so, is it possible to make those people 'enthousiastic' for OSM, by a 'simple method' ? -> i mean here by ; people are not going to read all those 'rules' about copyright and so on ... much to 'complex', and sometimes/mostly not in Flemish ... i mean here ; a simple website to publish such maps/info, so that it satifies all rules of OSM , and preferable in Flemish to read ?<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-02-01 20:21 GMT+01:00 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Talk-be mailing list submissions to<br>
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Talk-be digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2 (Ben Abelshausen)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 20:21:13 +0100<br>
From: Ben Abelshausen <<a href="mailto:ben.abelshausen@gmail.com">ben.abelshausen@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAOisDiV0LCOyPpYCo+VTPwRAwkGGKe=WV2jej7YcKcC=<a href="mailto:NKq%2B8w@mail.gmail.com">NKq+8w@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
Sorry that you got dragged into this discussion but it pops up sometimes...<br>
<br>
In short: When you are not sure don't use the map as a source. When you<br>
have permission from the author just put that permission up on the OSM-wiki.<br>
<br>
More information is here:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission</a><br>
<br>
Happy Mapping,<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:40 PM, hvdb <<a href="mailto:henke54@gmail.com">henke54@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> my my ... what a 'discussion' over such a 'simple asking' .... ;P<br>
> so ... if i could get a map or some info, what should one do then, so that<br>
> it is ' legal' ... get a 'stamp' on such a map/papers , or something else ?<br>
> Also ... how should one post/map such map/info on OSM, to proof that it is<br>
> 'OK' for the people of the city hall ?<br>
><br>
> 2015-02-01 16:26 GMT+01:00 <<a href="mailto:talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org</a>>:<br>
><br>
>> Send Talk-be mailing list submissions to<br>
>> <a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
>> <a href="mailto:talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org">talk-be-request@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
>> <a href="mailto:talk-be-owner@openstreetmap.org">talk-be-owner@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of Talk-be digest..."<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Today's Topics:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time?<br>
>> (Sander Deryckere)<br>
>> 2. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels)<br>
>> 3. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:18:59 +0100<br>
>> From: Sander Deryckere <<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking<br>
>> time?<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:CABUOUO8SrRODVgL5iUi4CufUSVAHc2FwkDt177bK5NWkYTW-Rg@mail.gmail.com">CABUOUO8SrRODVgL5iUi4CufUSVAHc2FwkDt177bK5NWkYTW-Rg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
>><br>
>> I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright.<br>
>> There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here.<br>
>> Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br>
>><br>
>> We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<br>
>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br>
>><br>
>> The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials<br>
>> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"<br>
>> or even "a database" is.<br>
>><br>
>> However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> - A collection of different records: there are different streets with<br>
>> data<br>
>> - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a<br>
>> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place<br>
>> (which is<br>
>> the intended purpose of this map)<br>
>><br>
>> The Sui Generis right protects<br>
>><br>
>> - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of<br>
>> streets is complete, and the information about those streets is<br>
>> complete<br>
>> - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification<br>
>> or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The<br>
>> information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the<br>
>> municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and<br>
>> rendering<br>
>> that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's<br>
>> similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess<br>
>> that governments just shouldn't have any servants.<br>
>><br>
>> Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is given)<br>
>> the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a substantial<br>
>> part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's again both,<br>
>> since the information offered by the council is most likely of high<br>
>> quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high quantity.<br>
>><br>
>> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge<br>
>> that this is a violation to the database rights,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is<br>
>> just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can<br>
>> compare<br>
>> the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining<br>
>> those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just<br>
>> importing<br>
>> mistakes.<br>
>><br>
>> As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more<br>
>> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such<br>
>> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally<br>
>> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's<br>
>> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.<br>
>><br>
>> May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just<br>
>> claimed<br>
>> they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result,<br>
>> brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft.<br>
>> Microsoft<br>
>> even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from<br>
>> their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say<br>
>> Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google)<br>
>> because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be copyrighted,<br>
>> so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Regards,<br>
>><br>
>> Sander<br>
>><br>
>> 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>><br>
>> > Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and especially<br>
>> > the law.<br>
>> > The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not<br>
>> required<br>
>> > to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by one if<br>
>> > what you see on the map is correct.<br>
>> > Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not<br>
>> > where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you<br>
>> cannot<br>
>> > reproduce).<br>
>> > Same for the boundaries etc.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > André.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Talk-be mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> -------------- next part --------------<br>
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
>> URL: <<br>
>> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/8b9e0677/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/8b9e0677/attachment-0001.html</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 2<br>
>> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 15:12:22 +0100<br>
>> From: Andre Engels <<a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com">andreengels@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking<br>
>> time?<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:CAGzCZ0qqPONcBaOWQ2CMUmZ1S3DA8UK9NofOxqXvWH6kCPsvmw@mail.gmail.com">CAGzCZ0qqPONcBaOWQ2CMUmZ1S3DA8UK9NofOxqXvWH6kCPsvmw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about<br>
>> copyright. There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't<br>
>> matter here. Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<br>
>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials<br>
>> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"<br>
>> or even "a database" is.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br>
>> ><br>
>> > A collection of different records: there are different streets with data<br>
>> > Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a<br>
>> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is<br>
>> the intended purpose of this map)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The Sui Generis right protects<br>
>> ><br>
>> > qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of streets<br>
>> is complete, and the information about those streets is complete<br>
>> > substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification or<br>
>> presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The information<br>
>> can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the municipal council.<br>
>> However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering that map takes<br>
>> time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's similar to about all<br>
>> tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess that governments just<br>
>> shouldn't have any servants.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is<br>
>> given) the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a<br>
>> substantial part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's<br>
>> again both, since the information offered by the council is most likely of<br>
>> high quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high<br>
>> quantity.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will<br>
>> judge that this is a violation to the database rights,<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data<br>
>> is just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can<br>
>> compare the results with the existing council data and find differences.<br>
>> Examining those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just<br>
>> importing mistakes.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more<br>
>> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such<br>
>> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally<br>
>> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's<br>
>> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just<br>
>> claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a<br>
>> result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft.<br>
>> Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold<br>
>> than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our<br>
>> data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e.<br>
>> Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be<br>
>> copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Regards,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Sander<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and<br>
>> especially the law.<br>
>> >> The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not<br>
>> required to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by<br>
>> one if what you see on the map is correct.<br>
>> >> Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not<br>
>> where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you cannot<br>
>> reproduce).<br>
>> >> Same for the boundaries etc.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> André.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> Talk-be mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Talk-be mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> André Engels, <a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com">andreengels@gmail.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 3<br>
>> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:25:53 +0100<br>
>> From: Andre Engels <<a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com">andreengels@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking<br>
>> time?<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <CAGzCZ0pExrafZt+f9QO_9r7dJMLd+KssDQ1f=<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Tmgva4yxn0EOQ@mail.gmail.com">Tmgva4yxn0EOQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about<br>
>> copyright.<br>
>> > There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter<br>
>> here.<br>
>> > Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (<br>
>> > <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive</a>).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials<br>
>> > that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial<br>
>> part"<br>
>> > or even "a database" is.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > - A collection of different records: there are different streets with<br>
>> > data<br>
>> > - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a<br>
>> > single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place<br>
>> (which is<br>
>> > the intended purpose of this map)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The Sui Generis right protects<br>
>> ><br>
>> > - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of<br>
>> > streets is complete, and the information about those streets is<br>
>> complete<br>
>> > - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining,<br>
>> verification<br>
>> > or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The<br>
>> > information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the<br>
>> > municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and<br>
>> rendering<br>
>> > that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's<br>
>> > similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I<br>
>> guess<br>
>> > that governments just shouldn't have any servants.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Read<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035" target="_blank">http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035</a><br>
>><br>
>> "Ook het begrip 'investering in de presentatie van de inhoud van een<br>
>> gegevensverzameling' moet beperkt worden uitgelegd. Niet alle kosten voor<br>
>> de presentatie vallen daaronder, maar alleen die kosten die worden gemaakt<br>
>> om de databank de gegevens te kunnen laten verwerken."<br>
>><br>
>> And further:<br>
>> "De door [A] ten slotte nog genoemde kosten voor het drukken van de<br>
>> handleidingen met de normtabellen (EURO 3.000,-) en de tijdsbesteding voor de<br>
>> opname van de normgegevens uit de tabellen in P2O (volgens [A] twee weken<br>
>> fulltime werk per test), zijn naar het oordeel van de rechtbank - in<br>
>> verhouding tot de kosten van de ontwikkeling van een test in zijn geheel -<br>
>> niet als substantieel aan te merken"<br>
>><br>
>> Would it really be more than 3000 Euros plus 2 weeks of a full-time<br>
>> employee to put these data in a GIS database?<br>
>><br>
>> For more examples, the following were considered NOT to have a<br>
>> considerable<br>
>> investment (or at least, the companies behind them not to have shown<br>
>> considerable investment) by the Dutch judges:<br>
>> * The Dutch public broadcasting company's database of programs and their<br>
>> data<br>
>> * RyanAir's database of all its flight data<br>
>><br>
>> THOSE are the kinds of database the discussion is about. NOT a map with<br>
>> some roads coloured and a legenda.<br>
>><br>
>> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge<br>
>> > that this is a violation to the database rights.<br>
>> ><br>
>> If he hasn't laughed you away already, he will very easily say that no,<br>
>> this is not a protected database.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data<br>
>> is<br>
>> > just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can<br>
>> compare<br>
>> > the results with the existing council data and find differences.<br>
>> Examining<br>
>> > those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just<br>
>> importing<br>
>> > mistakes.<br>
>> ><br>
>> Best is the enemy of good. Yes, surveyed data is better than imported, and<br>
>> combined data is better than either. But that's only the case if you have<br>
>> the choice. Imported data is better than no data. It is also better than<br>
>> data you know to be wrong.<br>
>><br>
>> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more<br>
>> > strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such<br>
>> > advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally<br>
>> > grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore.<br>
>> It's<br>
>> > not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.<br>
>> ><br>
>> There is no legally grey zone here. You are creating it yourself.<br>
>><br>
>> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just<br>
>> > claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a<br>
>> > result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to<br>
>> Microsoft.<br>
>> > Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold<br>
>> > than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our<br>
>> > data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e.<br>
>> > Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be<br>
>> > copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.<br>
>> ><br>
>> Now, that's a jump. From picking a few points of data from another source<br>
>> than your own eyes to wholesale copying of another source... If the only<br>
>> way to keep people from breaking database rights is by increasing its<br>
>> extend into the ridiculous and then once more, maybe the time has come to<br>
>> just stop using volunteers for this project.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> André Engels, <a href="mailto:andreengels@gmail.com">andreengels@gmail.com</a><br>
>> -------------- next part --------------<br>
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Subject: Digest Footer<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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