<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>All they are good for is mark what is the 'ground truth'. Thereby showing, where the tags the ways got as a result, came from.<br><br></div>For your noexit example. One would set<br><br></div>traffic_sign=F45 exactly where the signpost is located. In that case the job is done. No need to tag a way (anymore. As far as I am concerned, this was different before, but then I'm probably one of those who misunderstood the noexit=yes tag).<br><br></div>Now the way will only be connected on one end and the F45 or F45b confirms that that is correct.<br><br></div>In case the validator complains about the loose node being very near to another highway, add noexit=yes on that node. noexit=yes now became a tag to make the validator shut up.<br><br><br></div>So all the traffic_sign does, is create a redundant connection between what's on the ground and how it affects the way (and sometimes a node (traffic_calming) or a relation (turn_restriction)).<br><br></div>Nothing more, nothing less.<br><br></div>This is why they started doing it in Finland:<br><br><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs</a><br><br></div>Now I'm not saying we have to try and add all of them, but I do want to make it possible and conveniently easy to add them (and their effects).<br><br>Jo<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-02-09 0:26 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2015-02-07 00:39, Jo wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">2015-02-07 0:09
GMT+01:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="">
<div>On 2015-02-05 22:57, Jo wrote :<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
</div>
Over the past days, I
adapted the data file for
the road sign plugin for
Belgium.<br>
<br>
</div>
I'd like to ask you to test
it.<br>
<br>
</div>
Install the plugin the usual way
and select something. Look at
the top right corner of the tags
pane on the right. A little icon
was added there, press it and
choose BE.<br>
<br>
</div>
Now it becomes easy to tag traffic
signs and their effects on the
ways they apply to. I'm going to
ask the developers for some
improvements, but it is functional
already.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br></span><span class="">
Regarding tests, it's surprising. I click
on the little icon but I see no "BE to
choose".<br>
If I click Setting, I see several
countries but not Belgium.<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
</div>
</div><span class="">
Call it wishful thinking, but what I want that
plugin to do is the following:<br>
<br>
</span></div><span class="">
1. add the corresponding tags on the selected ways,
which the sign affects<br>
</span></div><span class="">
2. add BE:A1b or something of the kind on a node next
to the way. This node is placed where the actual sign
is.<br>
<br>
</span></div><span class="">
It now becomes possible to see where the tags on the way
came from, call it a source, call it fuzzy, if that
makes you feel better. I call it redundancy and I don't
see a problem with that.<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I need to see that in action, but, as I told you I don't see any
Belgian selection.<br>
I'm running 7995.<br>
<br>
What I'm fearing with traffic signs is what happened and continues
to happen with noexit=yes.<br>
noexit=yes does not indicate that one cannot exit but that a road
continuity gap that prevents passing is intentional.<br>
It is made to warn QA tools that there's no error and maybe map
browsers to look at that location carefully.<br>
But contributors started to use it otherwise.<br>
They tagged it at plain dead ends just as totally uselessly as
tagging noexit=no in the middle of every street.<br>
Or, as I removed some, at junctions with the obvious intention to
indicate a no passing condition on one of the streets, but without
showing which of the streets and even less how far, where in that
street.<br>
Worse, they tagged it on ways, not realizing that a node cannot be
identified by identifying a way (which end?).<br>
Worse, some of them believed that it was made to tag the No Exit
signal (F45).<br>
Worse, someone silently modified <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#F45" target="_blank">the
Belgian Wiki</a> to instruct the Belgian community to do that F45
tagging.<br>
Without warning, without discussion. No reaction from anyone. I
removed that.<br>
<br>
What I'm thinking is that the noexit=yes page is very easy to
understand and that if it is misunderstood so badly, there is a high
risk that the traffic_sign page which is far more complicated will
be misunderstood even more.<br>
For one thing, that page says "Traffic signs give instructions or
provide information to road users".<br>
That's true, but it forgets to say "The other tags provide
instructions to GPSes so that they can do the routing and give
instructions or provide information to road users".<br>
The risk is to use only traffic signs and to have GPSes work very
badly.<br>
<br>
Please note that I am not discussing the plugin but the habits that
starting to use road signs can induce.<br>
In fact, I wonder what road signs are useful for if the conventional
tags do the same better and more fully.<br>
<br>
Cheers
<br><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Talk-be mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>