<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Sander,<br><br></div>Thank you for having a look at it! You are right. The plugin code itself needs to be changed to accomodate the remarks at the start of your message.<br><br></div><div>traffic_sign should go on the selected node<br><br>and the effects of the sign should go on the selected ways<br><br></div><div>The way it works now, you'd have to remove the tags that don't apply, which is not user-friendly at all, but at least it's easier than having to run the plugin twice.<br></div><div><br></div>I've already created some tickets for some improvements, but I'm afraid I'll have to try and do it myself... I'm looking into creating plugins for JOSM, so adapting one may be good practice.<br><br></div>I'm going to try and implement the other observations. I have to admit that I've been improvising here and there... sorry for the imperfections.<br><br>Moped and mofa are indeed problematic. Is Belgium the only country which differentiates those by using class A and B? Or was my assumption wrong that Mofa is Class A and Moped is Class B?<br><br></div>Jo<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sanderd17@gmail.com" target="_blank">sanderd17@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses.<br><br></div>First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like <br><br></div>traffic_sign=BE:C21[7]<br><br></div>and no tags like<br><br></div>maxweight=7<br><br></div>Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. So the stylesheet should try to recognise all traffic sign codes. Now you can tag something like traffic_sign=BE:A1a + maxweight=7, and JOSM will display a maxweight sign. Which isn't good. Splitting the tags completely makes it possible to have some redundancy, and to check one tagset against the other.<br><br></div>Next to that, when we need to tag traffic signs, I would also like a way to set the direction of a sign easily, and to be able to view the direction easily. Certainly on physically split highways, some signs tend to be in the middle of the road, so it's unclear how they're facing. At crossings it can also be very ambiguous. We shouldn't have to fill in an angle by hand, but with some hotkey+mouse action, JOSM could generate the right angle (and maybe rotate the sign like it does for turn restrictions).<br><br></div>Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments.<br><br></div><div>Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible.<br></div><div><br></div>And as a final general comment, when it comes to sub-signs and direction signs, there are many free texts possible. This should also be made possible next to the few defaults. <br><br><br><br></div>Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above.<br><br></div>C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging.<br><br></div>C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy.<br><br></div>C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is.<br><br></div>Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin.<br><br></div>No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess).<br><br></div>The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see <a href="http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508" target="_blank">http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508</a> as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic).<br><br></div>F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes<br><br></div>The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?)<br><div><br><div>I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life.<br><br></div><div>Regards,<br></div><div>Sander<br></div><div><div><br><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-02-09 1:15 GMT+01:00 Jo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:winfixit@gmail.com" target="_blank">winfixit@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>All they are good for is mark what is the 'ground truth'. Thereby showing, where the tags the ways got as a result, came from.<br><br></div>For your noexit example. One would set<br><br></div>traffic_sign=F45 exactly where the signpost is located. In that case the job is done. No need to tag a way (anymore. As far as I am concerned, this was different before, but then I'm probably one of those who misunderstood the noexit=yes tag).<br><br></div>Now the way will only be connected on one end and the F45 or F45b confirms that that is correct.<br><br></div>In case the validator complains about the loose node being very near to another highway, add noexit=yes on that node. noexit=yes now became a tag to make the validator shut up.<br><br><br></div>So all the traffic_sign does, is create a redundant connection between what's on the ground and how it affects the way (and sometimes a node (traffic_calming) or a relation (turn_restriction)).<br><br></div>Nothing more, nothing less.<br><br></div>This is why they started doing it in Finland:<br><br><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs</a><br><br></div>Now I'm not saying we have to try and add all of them, but I do want to make it possible and conveniently easy to add them (and their effects).<span><font color="#888888"><br><br>Jo<br></font></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>2015-02-09 0:26 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>
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<div>On 2015-02-07 00:39, Jo wrote :<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote"><span>2015-02-07 0:09
GMT+01:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
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<div>On 2015-02-05 22:57, Jo wrote :<br>
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<div>Hi,<br>
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Over the past days, I
adapted the data file for
the road sign plugin for
Belgium.<br>
<br>
</div>
I'd like to ask you to test
it.<br>
<br>
</div>
Install the plugin the usual way
and select something. Look at
the top right corner of the tags
pane on the right. A little icon
was added there, press it and
choose BE.<br>
<br>
</div>
Now it becomes easy to tag traffic
signs and their effects on the
ways they apply to. I'm going to
ask the developers for some
improvements, but it is functional
already.<br>
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Regarding tests, it's surprising. I click
on the little icon but I see no "BE to
choose".<br>
If I click Setting, I see several
countries but not Belgium.<br>
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Call it wishful thinking, but what I want that
plugin to do is the following:<br>
<br>
</span></div><span>
1. add the corresponding tags on the selected ways,
which the sign affects<br>
</span></div><span>
2. add BE:A1b or something of the kind on a node next
to the way. This node is placed where the actual sign
is.<br>
<br>
</span></div><span>
It now becomes possible to see where the tags on the way
came from, call it a source, call it fuzzy, if that
makes you feel better. I call it redundancy and I don't
see a problem with that.<br>
<br>
</span></div>
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I need to see that in action, but, as I told you I don't see any
Belgian selection.<br>
I'm running 7995.<br>
<br>
What I'm fearing with traffic signs is what happened and continues
to happen with noexit=yes.<br>
noexit=yes does not indicate that one cannot exit but that a road
continuity gap that prevents passing is intentional.<br>
It is made to warn QA tools that there's no error and maybe map
browsers to look at that location carefully.<br>
But contributors started to use it otherwise.<br>
They tagged it at plain dead ends just as totally uselessly as
tagging noexit=no in the middle of every street.<br>
Or, as I removed some, at junctions with the obvious intention to
indicate a no passing condition on one of the streets, but without
showing which of the streets and even less how far, where in that
street.<br>
Worse, they tagged it on ways, not realizing that a node cannot be
identified by identifying a way (which end?).<br>
Worse, some of them believed that it was made to tag the No Exit
signal (F45).<br>
Worse, someone silently modified <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium#F45" target="_blank">the
Belgian Wiki</a> to instruct the Belgian community to do that F45
tagging.<br>
Without warning, without discussion. No reaction from anyone. I
removed that.<br>
<br>
What I'm thinking is that the noexit=yes page is very easy to
understand and that if it is misunderstood so badly, there is a high
risk that the traffic_sign page which is far more complicated will
be misunderstood even more.<br>
For one thing, that page says "Traffic signs give instructions or
provide information to road users".<br>
That's true, but it forgets to say "The other tags provide
instructions to GPSes so that they can do the routing and give
instructions or provide information to road users".<br>
The risk is to use only traffic signs and to have GPSes work very
badly.<br>
<br>
Please note that I am not discussing the plugin but the habits that
starting to use road signs can induce.<br>
In fact, I wonder what road signs are useful for if the conventional
tags do the same better and more fully.<br>
<br>
Cheers
<br><span><font color="#888888">
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<td>André.</td>
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