<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>Checked the stops of line 65. Fixed some of the remarks. Couldn't fix others. André's findings conflict with the data coming from TEC. He has the local knowledge, so the most likely explanation is that he's right.<br><br></div>I never claimed the stops were at the correct positions. They're all in now, so feel free to move them to the proper place if you pass them by. That's what I do for the ones that are nearer to me, when I happen to go there.<br><br></div>For the non existing stops, which are still part of a bus route in TEC's data, it's annoying. No idea what to do about those.<br><br></div>I did a best effort attempt to reconcile what TEC provide us with, with what I could figure out from the aerial imagery. If, at some point, people will provide us with Mapillary pictures from the surroundings of the stops, it will become possible to verify their positions in a better way. But last summer there was no such thing and since we're not allowed to look at Google street view, I refuse to do so.<br><br></div>I also saw nobody stepping in to use the data in the file that I made available on Dropbox, so I took it upon myself to add them. If I had know that this was going to cause bad blood from Brugge all the way to Liège, I might have chosen another hobby to waste my time on. Everybody happy.<br><br></div>The way I figure it, we're constantly trying to improve the data, incrementally.<br><br></div>Oh yes, source tags belong on the changesets, so I remove them.<br><br></div>tags like todo_by_Papou don't belong in the data either, so they annoy me and cause me to write inflammatory comments on changesets. Odd that it takes months before a reaction surfaces. And of course not as a personal message, but as a public shaming. Way to go.<br><br></div>There is one comment I do like. When I draw shelters, I've never added shelter=yes to the highway=bus_stop node. Often thought about doing that, but there are also contributors who'd consider that redundant tagging. I don't mind a bit of redundancy, myself. So if others think it's a good idea, I might start doing that.<br></div>Oh, I also never removed bin,bench or shelter when I drew them as separate objects. That's indeed not totally logical. Oh well, nobody's perfect. Least of all me.<br><br></div>Jo<br><div><div><div><br><br><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-04-07 21:46 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>Hello Julien and TEC collaborators,<br>
<br>
I finally decided to explain here why I stopped working for the
TEC project. <br>
<h4>Mediocre result<br>
</h4>
I had almost totally mapped TEC line 65 (before the stops were
announced to be complete). I had made all the hard work finding
where the TEC bus stops are (1). I still needed to review the
whole thing with aerial maps, but while waiting for an illusive
confirmation from TEC of about 10 bug reports I sent them, I was
giving myself a break and I was playing with the GPX trace that
I'm probably the only one to have made. I was having fun writing
a program that analyzes GPX, automatically detects where the car
stopped, computes the average of the oscillating stop position and
makes a POI of it, all that displaying nicely in JOSM. The
pre-alpha was producing amazingly good results for a first try.
(That program might analyze GPX data produced by a 60€ GPS
smartphone installed on the buses).<br>
<br>
(1) TEC's data can put them 100 m and more away from the true
location, even on another road. I had put most of them less that 5
m where they are, and as carefully tagged as possible with shelter
etc...<br>
<br>
The fun was totally spoiled when Polyglot sent me an e-mail saying
that (without first contacting me in any way) he had made
modifications to many of my pending bus stops and that the
schoolmaster or is it OSM chief was not pleased.<br>
He had posted the following public insults in what the OSM.org map
readers see when they look at my bus stops data (left pane).<br>
We should try to explain to Polyglot that OSM is a geographic
database and not a database of insults.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><b>reviewing all bus stops added for route
65. Performing conflation where required and improving
positioning where needed. Why were 3 versions necessary to get
this mediocre result? </b><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><b>routes for TEC 65, mapped properly,
please, if somebody offers you to show how it's done, grab the
opportunity to learn. Alternatively look at all the other
routes this person already did over the past years </b><b><br>
</b></blockquote>
And maybe more.<br>
<br>
What a sin to make 3 OSM updates for about 100 bus stops, isn't
it! Read below how many he made !!!<br>
Regarding what the ignorant people we are must "learn" from the
teacher, I had asked before on the mailing list several questions
and they were never answered.<br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging" target="_blank">The
tagging conventions are here</a>, the answers should be there,
and I did exactly what they say. Obviously, if we are commanded
to look at other routes, their links should at least be in those
conventions. Etc.<br>
<br>
Being disgusted (and because it's alleged be a way to "learn"), I
looked at just a dozen of those so-called corrections, no more, I
stopped out of disgust.<br>
Let us see what "mediocre result" means. <br>
Mostly, they move by 2 m the bus stops that I had painfully found
50 or 100 m away and correctly moved.<br>
Or they do such minor details.<br>
Or they just introduce plain mistakes.<br>
<br>
<b>Please</b> note that I do not disparage other people's work,
quite the opposite.<br>
But when my work is disparaged, I compare.<br>
<br>
<b>Please</b> let me make my final line 65 modifications of the
following before doing any more anyone.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197984" target="_blank">In this
place</a>, rue Hamal, Polyglot made a slight position change of
"Liège Opéra".<br>
I was waiting for and I now have confirmation that this bus stop
does not exist.<br>
I think that it was a temporary stop during the road works in 2009
and that it was never removed from the map.<br>
I am going to remove it, at least for line 65.<br>
Is moving non-existing bus stops really a correction?<br>
Which is a mediocre result?<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197983" target="_blank">This nearby</a><a>
place</a> is the line terminus of 65 and, as I know it, quite
logically the place where the bus waits for passengers and starts.<br>
I had put the line start where the buses start but Polyglot put it
at the <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197984" target="_blank">non-existing
stop</a> here above.<br>
Which is a mediocre result?<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955198000" target="_blank">In this
place</a>, I put the bus stop quite normally on the right side
of the road.<br>
Polyglot moved it to the left side, on the sidewalk behind the
parking!<br>
Now, TEC must buy English like buses with doors on both left and
right sides to service that stop !!!<br>
Checking it today, I see that Polyglot has put it back where I had
put it (In 3 additional updates !!!)<br>
Which is a mediocre result?<br>
<br>
I was waiting confirmation that <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955198001" target="_blank">this bus
stop</a> does not exist.<br>
Although that's indicated in a fixme, Polyglot moved once again a
non-existing bus stop. (I passed by that place and I didn't see
any bus stop with a careful look).<br>
Are the bus stops moved just in order to write insults?<br>
I will remove it.<br>
Which is a mediocre result?<br>
<br>
When I checked <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197938" target="_blank">this stop</a>
with my GPS, I noticed a bus stop opposite.<br>
I first thought that it belonged to line 65.<br>
But a close look at the photo I took showed that it belongs to
line 727.<br>
So, it should be on the map, now that all bus stops are finished,
but it is not.<br>
I will do nothing because it's not my line 65 matter.<br>
Which is a mediocre result?<br>
<br>
And so, I wondered if <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197938" target="_blank">that stop
opposite</a> did not belong to line 227 too.<br>
And it does, I did see a 227 bus stopping there, but that's not
indicated in the tags.<br>
Which is a mediocre result?<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259" target="_blank">Near this
bus stop</a>, Polyglot drew a shelter. Very nice.<br>
But he did not shelter=yes in the stop.<br>
I would probably have done that in my last review because I'm not
doing mediocre tagging.<br>
<br>
Polyglot had written:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">If you insist on putting them [source=TEC
2014-04] on the objects, take the prepared osm file. Select all
objects, and add the source tag you like.<br>
</blockquote>
I did put source=TEC 2014-04 in <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464/history" target="_blank">this
bus stop</a>, as an experiment, to see what would happen.<br>
What happened is that Polyglot removed it.<br>
Regarding 3 updates, I had corrected the TEC position by more than
100m and put the correct tags in 1 update; Polyglot used another
one for that freakish update. A third one will be needed to add
the shelter he forgot.<br>
What's the name of that game? "Mediocre Results"?<br>
<br>
Regarding the 3 updates insult, <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464/history" target="_blank">this
bus stop</a> had correctly been tagged and moved by 20m+ in <b>1
update</b> by Papou. Polyglot used <b>2 more updates</b>, and
now 3, to move it by 2m and to remove source= again. Really
important and worth an insult !!!<br>
<br>
I'm just back from totally different work where I happened to see
2 bus stops 10m and 30m off their position.<br>
And, how can one possibly insult other mapper when that line is
going contraflow (contra one-way) there !!!<br>
<br>
I made 4 spelling corrections to the place names (see below).
Polyglot managed to reintroduce one of them in the line names.<br>
<br>
Come with us and play the Mediocre Results game!<br>
<h4> History</h4>
Let us briefly recall what happened before that.<br>
I shared Julien's enthusiasm by making a beta TEC_2014_04.osm
import file containing bus stops and lines.<br>
I tried to start a so-called necessary discussion about tags,
lines, capitalization etc on talk-be and there was absolutely no
reply.<br>
Julien published <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC" target="_blank">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC</a>
containing his suggestions and a reference to my file.<br>
I discovered that Polyglot had silently replaced my name and file
by his and totally ignored what Julien had written in this
document. He claimed that he didn't find my file but he never
asked (I had renamed it to avoid misuse). I had made instructions
to use my file; he erased them and refused to make instructions
for his.<br>
I said that Polyglot's file should contain the TEC lines with
their numbers. My file did contain the lines. They are necessary
(for example to avoid contraflow like I have found above).
Polyglot refused because "De Line's files do not contain lines"
(and that maybe causes wrong routes). That may be too why line
227 stops are missing.<br>
Let us notice that OSM presently contains bus stops but no lines
(except "mediocre" ones). I wanted to add more nearby ones,
correctly, but I will not.<br>
I offered my help to convert the place names to lowercase and fix
the accentuation and Polyglot refused it. My idea was to match the
names with those of nearby places of the OSM data. Polyglot used
Wikipedia municipality names which, of course, miss the villages.
As a result, for just one line I had to fix 4 names which the OSM
map was displaying differently for the village and for its stops
inside. Polyglot reintroduced one mistake and there are more of
them.<br>
I said that the TEC data should obviously contain source=TEC
2014_04 so that it can be queried (with overpass) which release
they contain and Polyglot obstinately refused such a mere request.
TEC data is now at TEC 2014_07, even 2014_10 and probably later
they say, which is unused, and just wonder how you would
differentiate a mix of 04 and 07 if it were.<br>
Question: if someone were not fearing insults and introduced 2015
data, how would he do that and how would the others know (with
overpass)?<br>
That essential question wasn't even considered.<br>
In consequence, I thought that I would be more happy if I stopped
trying to organize TEC and limited myself to mapping a few lines.
But I wasn't happy even so. And I have the feeling that the same
thing happened to Julien.<br>
<br>
I may write a second e-mail about the lines.<br>
<br>
Best regards.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>