<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>The problem is that even the official sources are sometimes wrong.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I know some examples where the official route status is completely false regarding the reality on the field like <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/49.6538/5.3533" class="">http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/49.6538/5.3533</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/64157063" class="">N840 going south-north from Orval </a>is documented on Wallonie's <a href="http://geoservices.wallonie.be" class="">Réseau routier régional</a> as a ‘main' road (even it if is so small that two small lorries could no cross each other and that there is a restriction for all motorized vehicles !), while <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/64157162" class="">the one going to the north-east</a> and which is <a href="https://www.google.be/maps/place/Abbaye+d'Orval/@49.6401209,5.3518258,3a,75y,53.82h,90.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sYLWZIdkdRxSJ35mqFs-hCQ!2e0!6s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=YLWZIdkdRxSJ35mqFs-hCQ&output=thumbnail&cb_client=search.TACTILE.gps&thumb=2&w=392&h=106&yaw=193.30734&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x47ea8dd01812b513:0x8673170607a6243e!8m2!3d49.6397231!4d5.3494654!6m1!1e1" class="">a a matter of a fact the one to be followed</a> isn’t even mentioned on that official service.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In those situation I prefer mapping the real situation even if the administrative status is wrong. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><b class="">Regarding the classification</b>, it looks to me that the description in the wiki is pretty accurate and clear. residential = "Often lined with housing” while unclassified is "<span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);" class="">serve a purpose other than access to properties. Often link villages and hamlets.</span><span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);" class="">"</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So to get back to the Liege case, it looks pretty clear to me that most of the streets should be mapped as <u class="">residential</u> and not as <u class="">unclassified</u>. However, some places are quite “special” like the Thiers-à-Liège where I can understand that roads (if one can name this a road) could easily be mapped as unclassified. But that’s an exception.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Matthieu</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 17 Sep 2016, at 00:21, Eebie <<a href="mailto:ebe050@gmail.com" class="">ebe050@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><p class="">Hello,</p><p class="">It is strange discussion about the use of another (commercial)
map as source for OSM. Did Michelin license the use of their maps?</p><p class="">On the other side: it is the gouvernement that decides about the
road classification.<br class="">
For Wallonie the concept of the classification 'La
hiérarchisation du réseau' with RGG Réseau à Grand Gabarit, RESI
Réseau Interurbain and RSR Réseau Sous-Régional exists already 20
years. For the concept see <a href="http://routes.wallonie.be/struct.jsp?chap=3&page=2" class="">http://routes.wallonie.be/struct.jsp?chap=3&page=2</a>(1)<br class="">
For Vlaanderen the general concept of the classification is in
Ruimtelijk Structuurplan Vlaanderen 2011 (2) with Hoofdweg,
Primaire Weg Cat. I & Cat. II, Secundaire Weg and Lokale
Weg. <br class="">
And there is the Brussels region.</p><p class="">The question should be how we can translate those official
classifications to the limited categories of classification we
have in OSM. And that should come in the Wiki. For the moment the
Conventions/Highways in the Wiki is still based on the situation
before 1989, when the Belgian roads became a matter of the
Regions. <br class="">
</p><p class="">Regards, </p><p class="">Erik<br class="">
</p><p class="">(1) For Wallonie the lists of roads can be found in official
publications as <a href="http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/arch_a1.pl?sql=%28text+contains+%28%27%27%29%29&rech=1&language=fr&tri=dd+AS+RANK&value=&table_name=loi&F=&cn=1993122263&caller=archive&fromtab=loi&la=F&ver_arch=001" class="">http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/arch_a1.pl?sql=(text+contains+(%27%27))&rech=1&language=fr&tri=dd+AS+RANK&value=&table_name=loi&F=&cn=1993122263&caller=archive&fromtab=loi&la=F&ver_arch=001</a><br class="">
(2) For Vlaanderen see <a href="http://www.vlaanderen.be/nl/publicaties/detail/ruimtelijk-structuurplan-vlaanderen-geco-rdineerde-versie-2011" class="">http://www.vlaanderen.be/nl/publicaties/detail/ruimtelijk-structuurplan-vlaanderen-geco-rdineerde-versie-2011</a>
(page 487) and <a href="https://rsv.ruimtevlaanderen.be/Portals/121/documents/publicaties/samenvatting_w.pdf" class="">https://rsv.ruimtevlaanderen.be/Portals/121/documents/publicaties/samenvatting_w.pdf</a>
pages 83-87 and the map on page 126<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Op 16-09-16 om 21:51 schreef André
Pirard:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:57DC4D25.1010802@gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Marc,<br class="">
<br class="">
Could you please forward/translate this reply to Michael and
anyone who believe that Liège (and other places?) contain main
road classification errors that produce bad routing. One-way
streets and the like will be another subject.<br class="">
I suggested below to compare the OSM classification with that of
Michelin.<br class="">
Martin Koppenhoefer replied down below that Michael is wrong
because "we" (they) "do more or less like Michelin". But he
doesn't say if it is more or less and how much.<br class="">
He asks "Where do you see differences?", meaning that he did not
try to find them.<br class="">
<br class="">
Consequently, I have made my own <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=CltvdXQ6anNvbl1bdGltZcSCxIQ2MF07Ci8vIGdhdGhlciByZXN1bHRzCigKICDElyBxdcSeeSDEqiB3YXlbImhpZ2jEtnkiPSJtb3RvcsS_Il0oe3tiYm94fX0pxJXEq8S_xLnEu8S9xYnFgnByxI1hcsWAxYvFjcWPxZHFk8WVxLTFl8S3xZnEvMS-xLfFgSJzZWPEiGTFocWjxYzFjsWQxZLFlMSVxLTFmMS6xa7FnCJ0xJ7EjMW4xYrFusWmxb3FqcWrxLjGgsWbxbDFgnVuY2xhc3NpZmllZMaKxaXFvMWoxZbEtcWsxpHFr8WAxYLEocabZGVuxohsxqHFu8Wnxb7EtArFqcStxZ5pxrDEoMSixKTEpgrEkCDFkGR5xJU-xJXHg3NrZWzErnTFv8WNc3R5bGU6CsSWKkRlZmHHgCDFs3TEjG5ncyBmxYfGpnlzKi8KxL8ge8S0b3BhY2nHlTowLjXGpXdpZMScOjPGpcW1bMWHOmJsxLDGpX3HmsWYxZrGqT3FhMWGxYjEt13Hs8Wqx7bHuMe6ece8LjnIgMiCyIQ0yIdvyIlyOsShZMiPyJHFrMiTxL89xrttxbjImse0xKsgyJ3Huce7x73Io8aAyKVoOsinxLTIiMiKyK3Ir8exyLHGg8S3PcWzxbVuxbfFosi4yJzHt8i9yKDIv8ikyIPJg8mFxKvJh8ireceOyIl3yYrIksmNeT3GhnLGiMmUyJvIusi8yJ_IocmAxZfJgsmEyKjIqjrJomzJpMmmyYzGksmpxqzIgsavxrHJlcmwyZfJssmayYHJnMm3yYbIqciKZ8Shx4fEtMiQx5rHm0jFrmzFrnQgxJxlIMe4xIx2yp_HsmFmyasgxpdpY2vGvGfHr8mLyKDKoWnKo8mvxKvJsci-yKLJm8iEOMm4yYjGn8mKCsWT&c=BL83OJVENO&R" class="">Michelin
compatible overpass query</a> (thanks to the author of the
original) that is using the same colors as Michelin (1).<br class="">
<br class="">
At <b class="">very first (short) sight</b>, I am surprised that Martin
did not spot that the ref=N3 road that's going north-west is
primary (in red) mostly but is interrupted by secondary segments
(in yellow) <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301189193#map=17/50.64889/5.55263" class="">Rue
de Hesbaye</a> and <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/237917909" class="">Rue Eugène
Houdret</a>. As well as in <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368855374#map=18/50.63813/5.58499" class="">Rue
Louis Jamme</a> to connect <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28611081" class="">Place Delcour</a>
to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28659889" class="">primary N90</a>
and <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368855373" class="">primary N610</a>
(2). N610 should in theory be secondary but I completely agree
with Michelin to make it debatable and make it primary like the
Namur road should.<br class="">
<br class="">
I did not investigate further (I'm short sighted indeed) but I
suggest that anyone contesting an OSM route compared it with the
same routing by Michelin, tried to find an explanation by
comparing <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=CltvdXQ6anNvbl1bdGltZcSCxIQ2MF07Ci8vIGdhdGhlciByZXN1bHRzCigKICDElyBxdcSeeSDEqiB3YXlbImhpZ2jEtnkiPSJtb3RvcsS_Il0oe3tiYm94fX0pxJXEq8S_xLnEu8S9xYnFgnByxI1hcsWAxYvFjcWPxZHFk8WVxLTFl8S3xZnEvMS-xLfFgSJzZWPEiGTFocWjxYzFjsWQxZLFlMSVxLTFmMS6xa7FnCJ0xJ7EjMW4xYrFusWmxb3FqcWrxLjGgsWbxbDFgnVuY2xhc3NpZmllZMaKxaXFvMWoxZbEtcWsxpHFr8WAxYLEocabZGVuxohsxqHFu8Wnxb7EtArFqcStxZ5pxrDEoMSixKTEpgrEkCDFkGR5xJU-xJXHg3NrZWzErnTFv8WNc3R5bGU6CsSWKkRlZmHHgCDFs3TEjG5ncyBmxYfGpnlzKi8KxL8ge8S0b3BhY2nHlTowLjXGpXdpZMScOjPGpcW1bMWHOmJsxLDGpX3HmsWYxZrGqT3FhMWGxYjEt13Hs8Wqx7bHuMe6ece8LjnIgMiCyIQ0yIdvyIlyOsShZMiPyJHFrMiTxL89xrttxbjImse0xKsgyJ3Huce7x73Io8aAyKVoOsinxLTIiMiKyK3Ir8exyLHGg8S3PcWzxbVuxbfFosi4yJzHt8i9yKDIv8ikyIPJg8mFxKvJh8ireceOyIl3yYrIksmNeT3GhnLGiMmUyJvIusi8yJ_IocmAxZfJgsmEyKjIqjrJomzJpMmmyYzGksmpxqzIgsavxrHJlcmwyZfJssmayYHJnMm3yYbIqciKZ8Shx4fEtMiQx5rHm0jFrmzFrnQgxJxlIMe4xIx2yp_HsmFmyasgxpdpY2vGvGfHr8mLyKDKoWnKo8mvxKvJsci-yKLJm8iEOMm4yYjGn8mKCsWT&c=BL83OJVENO&R" class="">my
overpass</a> with <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://fr.viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Liege-_-Liege-Belgique?" class="">the
Michelin map</a> (my "Michelin info" message helps the wise
JOSM users too), and asked people with local knowledge if they
know better than Michelin.<br class="">
<br class="">
Last point is what source:???=Michelin ??? to use to prevent a
StijnRR or like arbitrarily destructing well thought out tagging
without notifying the author. I suggest source:highway=<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans">https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans</a>
2016 2016.<br class="">
<br class="">
Kéne afêre à Lîdje and I hope that this work will be useful
elsewhere too,<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers <br class="">
<br class="">
<table class="">
<tbody class="">
<tr class="">
<td class="">André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br class="">
(1) As white would not fit for residential, I used grey. I'm
surprised indeed that no unclassified roads turn up in blue but
that doesn't affect routing.<br class="">
(2) why the heck do those people adore splitting?<br class="">
<br class="">
On 2016-09-15 17:02, André Pirard wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:57DAB814.9050309@gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-09-13 18:21, Marc Gemis
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAJKJX-QxFvtPk98BOGtqPkH2tSzeHod9b9_4TNVNTzBX=GH43A@mail.gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">Hallo,
I was contacted by a mapper from Germany with whom I worked on turn:lanes.
He has to following question, can someone with local knowledge inform
us about the road classifications ? I have the impression a lot of
streets are indeed residential. Feel free to reply in French, I'll
translate it to English for him.
[snipped]
Now I want ask you about another problem.
Coming from here
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515">http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515</a>
I checked Liege to find out the mapping of roads there:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn">http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn</a>
My guess is, that unclassified is used wrong there and that is the
reason for strange routings. My opinion is that unclassified as the
lowest kind of connecting roads do not end at city borders and have or
need common connection to same or higher class inside of towns or
villages. For me routers should avoid residentials and lower as much
as possible. Do you have any idea to check and correct this in Liege
to make routing better?
If there are any questions, please ask.
Regards
Michael aka hurdygurdyman
</pre>
</blockquote>
In order to produce good routing using the <b class="">main</b> roads
(1), ...<br class="">
why not adopt in OSM the <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://fr.viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Liege-_-Liege-Belgique?" class="">same
classification as Michelin</a> (2)?<br class="">
They should know something about routing, shouldn't they?<br class="">
<br class="">
<table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2" border="1" class="">
<tbody class="">
<tr class="">
<td valign="top" class="">Michelin<br class="">
</td>
<td bgcolor="#ff0000" valign="top" class=""><br class="">
</td>
<td colspan="2" rowspan="1" bgcolor="#ffcc00" valign="top" class=""><br class="">
</td>
<td colspan="2" rowspan="1" valign="top" class=""><br class="">
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="">
<td valign="top" class="">BE ID/type<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">Nxx<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">Nxxx<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">other<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">many houses<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">rare houses<br class="">
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="">
<td valign="top" class="">OSM<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">primary<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">secondary<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">tertiary<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">residential<br class="">
</td>
<td valign="top" class="">unclassified<br class="">
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br class="">
Inside town, the main advantage is that streets are then
classified as either secondary/tertiary or
residential/unclassified <br class="">
according to whether they should be used or not for routes from
town place to place.<br class="">
Please note that when a street is promoted to tertiary status,
the fact that it contains houses gets disregarded<br class="">
(and hence I wonder if it's a good idea to consider houses for
road classification rather than using an additional residential
attribute (yes, I know it's the way "we" do it)).<br class="">
<br class="">
I am willing to explain JOSM users how to compare OSM and
Michelin easily.<br class="">
Please send me a <b class="">private </b><b class="">reply</b> to the next
message "Michelin info" to get it.<br class="">
I would do a part of Liège myself if it's organized by someone
distributing the tasks.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers <br class="">
<br class="">
<table class="">
<tbody class="">
<tr class="">
<td class="">André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-09-15 17:26, Martin
Koppenhoefer wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CABPTjTAgvteGX7=G52NnxvydfFJSQ8V2kE=9NN24OY3ahfWPRA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">Generally, I think we are doing it
more or less like Michelin in your table. Where do you see
differences? Clearly the classification of a road should not
change just because it enters a settlement.<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Cheers,<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Martin</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br class="">
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
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