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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Très long message... Read throughout,
up to the end absolutely! Highly important!<br>
<br>
Despite the explanation on SPW's site that PICC browsing &
tracing is public domain and the report from Julien Fastré,
recalled by myself, of what the PICC told him, the SPW would
certainly not sue OSM for using the PICC that way, vigilantes
repeatedly say that the SPW could and they threaten their mates
with OSM exclusion and total contribution removal, whatever the
source. <br>
<br>
This letter explains all that in greater detail.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-02-26 17:52, Glenn Plas
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D082B1.2050201@byte-consult.be"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 26-02-16 14:23, Thib wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi,
SPW PICC tiles layer is available in JOSM for mapping Belgian Southern
area but I can't find enough information about the license terms.
Is it allowed to :
- copy (doing"calc") buildings and other objects boundaries (as we do
with bing tiles)
- get address house numbers
I've found some old threads talking about that interesting source but no
real answer...
If someone has any information about it, It would be very useful.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Thib
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Reading their license, this is not open data as they restrict the reuse
and retain the right to change the license later. This data should not
be used at all imho. Now my french isn't that great on the legal
vocabulary notes, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't look good
to me:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf">http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/CopieDataSPW-CGA.pdf">http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/CopieDataSPW-CGA.pdf</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf">http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf</a>
For data to be OSM-fit, you need a compatible license like GRB and AGIV
have.</pre>
</blockquote>
You simply looked at the wrong files. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D082B1.2050201@byte-consult.be"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So, unless someone claims i'm wrong, we should not use this at all, if
you do... and a claim is made, that data will be removed from OSM by
analysing the user names involved and their changesets.</pre>
</blockquote>
It's amazing how many OSM contributors threaten their mates based
on superficial facts or © analysis (1).<br>
Think twice. The danger is that the SPW could complain about OSM
("a claim"), isn't it? <br>
What could be the problem if they say they will not?<br>
You simply misunderstood their "access rights" and I "claim that
you're wrong" indeed !!! <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D082B1.2050201@byte-consult.be"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'll be ignoring Lionel's follow-up and act like I didn't read it at all ...
Glenn
</pre>
</blockquote>
On 2016-03-02 09:39, Glenn Plas wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi,
Apparently it's not clear enough</pre>
</blockquote>
Obviously, and I'm going to try to make it clear.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">You can't use it. It's not a matter of opinion nor I care what certain
persons from PICC said to someone else I don't really know. I should
not care either, because that's what licences are for. They show me in
clear language what can and cannot.</pre>
</blockquote>
Is it important that you knew Julien Fastré as well as everybody
does, and the person he talked to and who explained on behalf of SPW
Carto that only copying the PICC is licensed and that OSM does not
copy it. The license regarding what we do is "public domain"
(explained below).<br>
What could be the problem?<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">It's really simple, you check the license. I'm not having the
discussion on what exactly copying data is (or isn't). </pre>
</blockquote>
Obviously, if you refuse to understand what the word "copy" means,
you will not understand the word "copyright".<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I was quite
clear on it: you can only copy data over with compatible licenses. We
all know what making a copy is in 2016.</pre>
</blockquote>
No, nobody knows before having understood or asked the copyright
owner what he means with "copy" (1).<br>
And many self-appointed vigilantes do not even do that. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm almost pulling out my hair btw, because you're not making the
correct conclusions.
You can NOT copy from data sources with incompatible licenses, having a
high five from someone at PICC does not count as a license.
Glenn</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
What "copying" means and what can be done by "tracing" is <a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/catalogue/b795de68-726c-4bdf-a62a-a42686aa5b6f.html#tabs-1">rather
clearly defined in the Conditions on their site</a>.<br>
With PICC, one can do two things (see the titles of the Web page):<br>
<ul>
<li>
<h3>Obtenir une copie de la donnée (= get a <big><big>copy</big></big>
of the data)<br>
</h3>
that is <b>copying</b> (downloading files) and the conditions
are:<br>
<ul>
<li><a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGA.pdf">Conditions
générales d’accès à l’obtention d’une copie numérique des
données géographiques numériques du Service public de
Wallonie</a></li>
<li><a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CPA-TypeB1.pdf">Conditions
particulières d’accès à l’obtention d’une copie numérique
d’une donnée géographique numérique du Service public de
Wallonie –Type B1</a></li>
<li><a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CGU.pdf">Conditions
générales d’utilisation des données géographiques
numériques du Service public de Wallonie</a></li>
<li><b>that is a pay license signed between SPW and user for a
well defined restricted use, time and area...</b><br>
</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>
<h3>Consulter (= browsing = what OSM does : <big><big>tracing</big></big>
VIA A WEB SERVICE)<br>
</h3>
that is <b>browsing</b> or <b>tracing</b> and the conditions
are:<br>
</li>
<ul>
<li><a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/LicServicesSPW.pdf">Conditions
d’accès et d’utilisation des services web géographiques de
visualisation du Service public de Wallonie</a><br>
</li>
<li> that is: "Aucune contrainte d'accès pour la consultation".</li>
<li><b>absolutely no restriction on what the user can do with
browsing and tracing the PICC</b></li>
</ul>
</ul>
<p>Would anyone be in an urgent need of a "license name" for
"consulter", it is "public domain".<br>
</p>
<p>According to the "<a
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be/files/documents/ConditionsSPW/DataSPW-CPA-TypeB1.pdf">Conditions
particulières de type B1</a>", the "copying" of PICC's data is
subject to 1) a possibly payed license 2) signed between SPW and
the user 3) for only a well defined, agreed part of Wallonia 4)
over a limited period 5) for an agreed restricted use.<br>
That kind of contract obviously cannot have a license name. But
that does not apply to OSM.<br>
<br>
</p>
<ul>
<ul>
</ul>
</ul>
<table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="bottom"><b><big>So, definitely: … </big></b></td>
<td align="center" valign="top"><big><b><big><big>YES WE CAN
TRACE THE PICC WMS</big></big></b></big>.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top"><br>
</td>
<td align="center" valign="top"><big>Please use it with its
perfect companion JOSM.</big></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
Suspecting that the self-appointed vigilantes could not agree with
what I understood and wrote here above, I explained the SPW Carto
what OSM does (tracing, which they already knew) and I asked them to
produce a clear explanation of what is allowed (which I had already
understood).<br>
<br>
Please note that this answer letter is an official statement,
written with the help of their lawyer.<br>
Regarding "I [don't] care what certain persons from PICC said to
someone else I don't really know", there is no need to personally
know those persons, nor me, more than the persons who announced
Bing's public domain.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject:
</th>
<td>RE: Utilisation du PICC pour Openstreetmap</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
<td>Thu, 18 Aug 2016 14:27:03 +0000</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
<td>helpdesk.carto <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:helpdesk.carto@spw.wallonie.be"><helpdesk.carto@spw.wallonie.be></a>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Les
utilisations que l’utilisateur peut faire sont :<br>
</span> </u> </b> </p>
<ul>
<li>se connecter sur le serveur du SPW et calquer le PICC afin
de faire des fonds de plan (=vectoriser),</li>
<li>réutiliser à sa guise les fonds de plan (1) (commercialement
ou non), <br>
</li>
<li>ne peut pas copier le PICC (2) sur ses serveurs à des fins
non-commerciales, sauf autorisation préalable du SPW (les
conditions particulières d’accès et d’utilisation s’appliquant
aux PICC ont normalement été écrites par la Géométrologie et
devraient être en ligne pour être opposables aux
utilisateurs),</li>
<li>ne peut pas copier PICC (2) sur ses serveurs et les
réutiliser à des fins commerciales (les revendre ou permettre
à ses utilisateurs de les revendre),</li>
<li>ne peut pas, non plus, recréer le service sur ses serveurs,
sauf autorisation préalable du SPW.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>(1) Les fonds de plans sont le résultats de la vectorisation
que vous réaliserez sur base du service.<br>
Il s’agit là, du résultat de votre vectorisation basée sur le
service du PICC.<br>
</p>
<p>(2) Le point relatif à la copie du PICC concerne les données
vectorisées que nous distribution. Dans votre cas, cela ne vous
concerne pas.<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Je
reste à votre disposition.</span> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#404040">HelpDesk
Carto</span> </b> <b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#404040"></span></b>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#404040">Département
de la Géomatique</span> <b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#404040">
- </span> </b> <br>
<a rel="nofollow" class="external free"
href="http://geoportail.wallonie.be">http://geoportail.wallonie.be</a></p>
</blockquote>
NB: in SPW's terminology, "service" means the WMS or similar server.<br>
<br>
This explanation and SPW Carto letter have been added to <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources#SPW_PICC_orthorectified_precision.3C25_cm_Wallonia_map"><span
class="tocnumber"></span><span class="toctext">Mapping resources</span></a>.
and <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/PICC">daughter
page</a> in the wiki.<br>
Which, BTW, needs a serious update.<br>
<br>
Is it clearer now?<br>
<br>
Text and replies continued below.<br>
<br>
Dormez bien (sur vos deux oreilles),<br>
Cheers,<br>
Cordialement, <br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
(1)<br>
Often, the © owners make a too limited explanation of their ©.<br>
For example, they say "you can print a personal copy or our maps".<br>
Or "you can use our map if our name is apparent on it".<br>
They have absolutely no notion of the tracing that OSM can do with
their map.<br>
How could OSM display on its map names of every sources it contains?<br>
<br>
And, without investigating, OSM vigilantes threaten with exclusions
their mates who would trace it.<br>
<br>
While helping someone with routing problems I mentioned the Michelin
map.<br>
I had just imagined that an OSM route could be compared to
Michelin's.<br>
Someone came down on me, suspecting me to trace Michelin.<br>
I had just come across ViaMichelin and that map is so coarse that it
would be stupid to trace it.<br>
He threatened to exclude me from OSM and to remove my contributions.<br>
That's removing a good part of the Walloon borders and all a jazz
!!!<br>
For not being reported, I had to swear that I never did such a silly
thing and that I never will.<br>
Out of curiosity I contacted Michelin.<br>
I asked them in excellent French if OSM can compare its routes with
theirs.<br>
They very kindly replied that the copyright mention is at the bottom
left of their maps.<br>
Including when their "Type de carte" is OSM background.<br>
She did not reply what file contains the copyright text.<br>
And certainly not to my question.<br>
Exactly what I say here above: "a too limited explanation of their
©".<br>
<br>
I made an overpass turbo script showing OSM with the Michelin's
colors.<br>
I won't show it because the vigilantes would accuse me to copy
Michelin's colors.<br>
While doing so, I noticed that the main axis Ans-Amercœur wasn't
fully Michelin's colors.<br>
So, this could produce suboptimal routes.<br>
This is because a few N3 streets are tagged highway=secondary
instead of =primary.<br>
I certainly did not correct that because the vigilantes would say
that it is copying Michelin.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
On 01-03-16 21:48, Erik B wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hello,
I understand that there is no clear agreement to use PICC for OSM but it
is said and written by different persons from the government that there
is nothing against the use of those data for OSM and that we don't risk
that data have to be deleted in the future.
It means that besides SPW aerial imagery also the data on the PICC map
may be used. Does this include the dimensions of the buildings, the
house numbers, the names of the streets and the names of rivers, woods,
farms and so on?
Erik
Op 29-02-16 om 17:38 schreef Julien Fastré:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Bonjour,
On n'est jamais parvenu à obtenir une réponse claire de la part du
SPW. Mais je confirme ce qu'écrit André Pirard: pour eux, recopier nos
données n'est pas les utiliser </pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
autrement dit, "tracer" et utiliser la trace à sa guise est
parfaitement licite.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">=> donc on pourrait tracer à partir du
PICC comme on le fait à partir de Bing!, selon eux. Le mieux (ou le
pire) c'est qu'ils ont rédigé leur nouvelle licence en partie pour
permettre à OSM d'utiliser ces données (il y a eu vraiment un travail
de ce côté), mais qu'elle reste floue pour qu'on le fasse.</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Les Conditions sur le site sont indubitables, mais uniquement pour
ceux qui ont déjà compris ce que nous disons.<br>
Il reste que la référence au fichier de Conditions de traçage
manque. Je l'ai signalé mais rien n'a changé.<br>
Peut-être que si une dizaine de contributeurs faisaient de même, ça
se remarquerait.<br>
L'Union fait la Force, n'est-ce pas.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Maintenant, s'ils se plaignent, je n'ai que des conversations
téléphoniques, des réunions et des échanges de courriels pour défendre
la personne qui serait mise en cause.</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Maintenant, nous avons "mon" texte officiel.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56D6A6AC.3080302@byte-consult.be" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">En Wallonie, on reste dans le domaine du compromis...
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Talk-be mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org">Talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
On 2016-02-26 17:37, lionel bulpa wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Bonjour,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pour être honnête, je l'utilise déjà, je ne contribue que de
temps en temps et mes contributions sont basé sur PICC. Je ne
connais pas bien les licences etc mais je supposais que si le
fond de carte était proposé dans JOSM, cela signifiait que nous
pouvions l'utiliser.</div>
</blockquote>
Pour info, voici >6 ans que Merkaartor présente le PICC dans ses
serveurs pré-configurés et que personne ne dit rien.<br>
Sauf moi que les logiciels devraient afficher les conditions
d’utilisation qu'il trouverait dans les méta-données du serveur.<br>
Et des méta-données disent par leurs absences qu'il n'y a pas de
restriction.<br>
Et l'auteur dit qu'elles sont absentes parce que personne ne les
lit.<br>
Et l'auteur du logiciel dit qu'il n'est pas nécessaire d'afficher ce
qu'on ne trouve pas.<br>
Et personne ne sait qui est la poule et l'œuf <span
class="moz-smiley-s3"></span><br>
Tout le monde est d'avis que cette information doit être diffusée au
hasard.<br>
Mais que c'est très très très important.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Si ce n'est pas le cas, merci de m'en informer </div>
<div><br>
</div>
Lio :)</blockquote>
Voir ci-dessus ...<br>
<br>
On 2016-02-28 10:53, lionel bulpa wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">J'ai lu vos réponses mais je n'ai pas réussi
à en tirer une conclusion claire (je dois traduire le texte :P )
Pouvons-nous utiliser les données PICC?</blockquote>
Oui. C'est ce que disent ses auteurs.<br>
J'essaye ci-dessus de l'expliquer aux incroyants.<br>
Pour traduire: S3.Google.Translator : excellent<br>
....<br>
<br>
On 2016-02-28 11:28, Jo wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Non<br>
<br>
So, unless someone claims i'm wrong, we should not use this at
all, if<br>
you do... and a claim is made, that data will be removed from
OSM by<br>
analysing the user names involved and their changesets.<br>
<br>
</div>
Il ne faut surtout pas l'utiliser. Tu risques d'avoir toutes tes
contributions relatées expulsées de la base de données OSM.<br>
<br>
</div>
Polyglot</blockquote>
<br>
Encore une menace non fondée, sans investigation.<br>
<br>
Encore bonjour,<br>
Cordialement,
<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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