<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear all,</div><div><br></div><div>recent discussion on the forum has given some insight in WHY certain people feel they need to adjust admin boundaries, at it seemingly makes no sense a house or company site can be in two different municipalities at once.</div><div><br></div><div>Personally, I feel we should NOT edit based on such logic, for such cases us belgians seem to have a way to just 'deal with it' or 'not make a big fuss', as long as mail arrives where it should we're happy.<br></div><div>I've also strongly defended my point there.<br><br></div><div>I do have to agree you cannot possibly survey the borders in the field:<br></div><div>- where they run along / cross roads<br></div><div>- where they decided to put the sign where it seemed 'best fit' to put it, with imprecision of multiple meters.<br>- ...<br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not in favor of a 'blind replacement', but in cases where there's differences, reïnstating the admin boundaries would get my support.<br><br><br></div><div>Note:<br></div><div>I once reported to Roeselare their sign of 'bebouwde kom' (built-up area) was put up BEYOND the sign for the border with Hooglede. Seems to make no sense, given the boundaries should be in the same position.<br></div><div>So rather then 'fixing' it by having the two signs on the same pole... I noticed later they just switched them around! So I pointed out that again...<br></div><div>Current situation: Driving from Roeselare to Hooglede, the signs are about 10m apart but in correct direction. From Hooglede to Roeselare the 'border' sign is missing, there's only the sign F1 for the built-up area.<br><br></div><div>The above just to show how unreliable field survey is for those.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op di 7 mei 2019 om 11:12 schreef Lionel Giard <<a href="mailto:lionel.giard@gmail.com">lionel.giard@gmail.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">I know that it's not always possible but in some cases, you can find the boundaries via the boundary stones (when they exists like in buildings/chapels). But they are generally well hidden - it often need local knowledge like from local notary of the village or local historican... And if you have contact with the municipality, you can get the information directly when they made a small change in the cadastre to reflect reality (like when they correct huge mistakes in the cadastre from more than a century ago). <div><br></div><div>But i'm pretty sure that cadastre is not yet up to good accuracy (compare to reality) at the moment. They are improving their data but, as far as i know, it is not yet corrected everywhere.</div><div>For example, in a lot of rural areas, the cadastre was made from the center of the agglomeration (i.e. the best accuracy is found near the church or the center of the village) and if you go more and more away of this center, you'll find big errors or incertitude in the data (like the cadastre parcels can be few dozen meters off reality). Relative to other cadastre parcels, the cadastre data is correct but not if you put our OSM data on top, it will not match for the comparable data like the location of streets, ... </div><div>That's why i say that i will not <b>YET </b>import blindly the cadastre administrative data, as it <b>can </b>be "imprecise" relative to the reality at the moment.</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mar. 7 mai 2019 à 10:42, K W via Talk-be <<a href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978ydp63a6b8b8yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:13px"><div></div>
<div>Good morning,</div><div>thanks a lot for your reply. It is difficult to see for me how you could see "by field survey" where administrative boundaries run. This is impossible, as they are not a physical feature. Therefore, the only valid reference are the official data. I agree that OSM is quite good, but there are definitely instances where the borders deviate by "a few metres" or more – which, for certain purposes, makes a big difference. Indeed, so far I have corrected mistakes by hand, based on the cadastre. As the only valid data one could imagine when it comes to administrative boundaries are the official ones (be it from the cadastre or from ING) it would still, in my opinion, be better to import those into OSM rather than correcting manually here and there.</div><div><br></div>
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On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 9:58:05 AM GMT+2, Lionel Giard <<a href="mailto:lionel.giard@gmail.com" target="_blank">lionel.giard@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989"><div><div dir="ltr">Hello,<div><br clear="none"></div><div>To me this dataset is not necessarily better than what we have in OSM (as we corrected some border by field survey .... where this dataset is wrong). I would never "replace" blindly all existing geometry by this one. I think we can say that we are more or less correct (i never saw errors of more than a few meters) - and i find it better to improve the current boundaries by hand : checking the official sources, the reality on the ground, ... For example, i had a part of a street that i surveyed recently where the addresses changed of municipality (to have the whole street in the same municipality and not cut it before the last three houses). We are correct in OSM, but not yet in the official data (as they don't update often enough).</div><div> </div><div>Technically, it is not the official source for administrative boundaries in Belgium, as the official source is the Cadastre - which is also open - but it is not yet accurate enough (even if they are improving it a lot recently). </div></div><br clear="none"><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail_quote"><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail_attr" dir="ltr">Le mar. 7 mai 2019 à 09:21, K W via Talk-be <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>> a écrit :<br clear="none"></div><blockquote class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989yqt7074597842" id="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989yqt98344"><div><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345yahoo-style-wrap"><div>EN: Good morning, from time to time I make adjustments in OSM where the boundaries between municipalities in OSM are not exactly following the official data. However, this is a tedious process, and it would be nice, of course, to have the exact data for all Belgium municipalities (and former municipalities – "deelgemeenten"/"sections") in one go.</div><div>Now, I have seen that it is possible to download the official border polygons from the site of the National Geographic Institute for free: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345enhancr_card_7277659766" href="http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm" target="_blank">IGN - produits - Données numériques</a> . The only problem is that I have no clue whatsoever how this could be done technically, i.e. to replace the existing municipal boundaries in OSM by the correct polygons from IGN. Could anybody help with this?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-link-enhancr-card gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03ymail-preserve-class gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03ymail-preserve-style" id="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03enhancr_card_7277659766" style="max-width:400px"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-enhancr-cardlink" href="http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)" target="_blank"><table class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-wrapper gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-ignore-table" style="max-width:400px" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="400"><table class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-ignore-table" style="max-width:400px;border-width:1px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(224,228,233);border-radius:2px" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-primary-image-cell" style="background-color:rgb(0,0,0);background-size:cover;border-radius:2px 2px 0px 0px;min-height:175px" valign="top" height="175" bgcolor="#000000"><table class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-overlay-container-table gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-ignore-table" style="width:100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-overlay-cell" style="background-color:transparent;border-radius:2px 2px 0px 0px;min-height:175px" valign="top" bgcolor="transparent"><table class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-ignore-table" style="width:100%;min-height:175px" height="175" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-richInfo2" style="text-align:left;padding:15px 0px 0px 15px;vertical-align:top"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-actions" style="text-align:right;padding:15px 15px 0px 0px;vertical-align:top"><div class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-share-container"></div></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1"><table class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-info gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03yahoo-ignore-table" style="background:rgb(255,255,255) none repeat scroll 0% 0%;width:100%;max-width:400px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-top:1px solid rgb(224,228,233)" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" align="center"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-radius:0px 0px 0px 2px"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%"><h2 class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-title" style="font-size:14px;line-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px">IGN - produits - Données numériques</h2><p class="gmail-m_7625513419743578180gmail-m_-6927342523947753978yiv5763097989gmail-m_8758786187872914345ydpbe4bfa03card-description" style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)"></p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>NL: Goedemorgen, af en toe maak ik correcties in OSM waar de grenzen tussen gemeenten in OSM niet precies de officiële gegevens volgen. Maar dat is een moeilijke procedure en het zou natuurlijk leuk zijn om de precieze gegevens voor alle Belgische gemeenten (en vroegere gemeenten – "deelgemeenten") in een keer te hebben.</div><div>Nu heb ik gezien dat het mogelijk is om de officiële grenspolygonen van de webpagina van het Nationaal Geografisch Instituut gratis te downloaden: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm" target="_blank">http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm</a>. Het enige probleem is dat ik geen idee heb hoe je dat technisch moet doen, dus hoe de huidige gemeentegrenzen op OSM te vervangen door de correcte polygonen van het NGI. Zou iemand kunnen helpen?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>FR: Bonjour, du temps en temps je fais des corrections dans OSM où les frontières entre les communes dans OSM ne suivent pas les données officielles. Mais cela est un processus pénible et il serait agréable, bien sûr, avoir les données exactes pour toutes les communes belges (et communes anciennes – "sections") d’un seul coup.</div><div>Or, j’ai vu qu’il est possible télécharger gratuitement les polygons officiels des frontières du site de l’Institut National Géographique: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm" target="_blank">http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm</a>. Le seul problème est que je n’ai aucune idée comment faire cela techniquement, c’est à dire comment remplacer les frontières communales existantes dans OSM par les polygons corrects de l’IGN. Est-ce que quelqu’un pourrait aider ?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>DE: Guten Morgen, ab und zu bringe ich Korrekturen in OSM an, wo die Grenzen zwischen den Gemeinden in OSM nicht genau den offiziellen Daten folgen. Aber das ist natürlich ein mühsamer Prozess, und es wäre natürlich schön, die genauen Daten für alle belgischen Gemeinden (und früheren Gemeinden – "Teilgemeinden") auf einmal zu haben.</div><div>Jetzt habe ich gesehen, dass es möglich ist die offiziellen Grenzpolygone auf der Webseite des Nationalen Geographischen Instituts gratis herunterzuladen: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" href="http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm" target="_blank">http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm</a>. Das einzige Problem ist, dass ich keine Ahnung habe, wie man das technisch machen müßte, mit anderen Worten wie man die Gemeindegrenzen, die in OSM derzeit existieren, durch die korrekten Polygone des ING ersetzen könnte. Kann mir da jemand helfen?</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Many thanks/hartelijk dank/merci beaucoup/vielen Dank!</div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
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