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<p>Hey everyone,</p>
<p>Thanks for all the answers and different viewpoints, they were
very enriching for the discussion.</p>
<p>First of all, it seems that most of you are in favour of tagging
them explicitely somehow or are already doing it, no one is
opposed to it - but there are some practical remarks on how to do
it.<br>
</p>
<p>It seems like 'designation=towpath' is what I was searching for
to tag the legality-aspect. I'm still wondering to use 'towpath'
or 'jaagpad' as the value for this tag (as this is very
Flanders-specific).</p>
<p>For the historic use of a towpath and the quality of cycling
there, I am inclined to still put a 'towpath=yes' or even better:
'historic:towpath=yes' on it.</p>
<p>As the form of some historic towpaths have diverged from paths to
unclassified roads and all in between, `service=towpath` is indeed
not very suitable tagging. Note that routers will still take other
factors (such as maxspeed and road classification) into account
when calculation a score, so a towpath indication doesn't
necessarily mean that it will be taken at any cost.<br>
<br>
I feel that we are getting close to a consensus. Are there further
remarks on what tags exactly to use?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>PS: about the Haven-roads and Havengebied-roads - for now I would
like to focus on jaagpaden first as these are most important for
our usecase. If necessary, a new mailing list thread can be
started for those.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04.03.20 20:35, Steven Clays wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+XiLsYiDACr+0VM7dD9-gu7jXBWc96VK4u8dyqkejngsdbSLQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>In Belgium, a towpath is a legal designation (eg.
designation=towpath), NOT something you can derive really from
ground truth. Towpaths as suchs do physically not exist
anymore: the distance between the path and the river is
nowadays sometimes more then 50 m, the towpath is physically
on a dike, or sometimes even perpendicular to the river... <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op di 3 mrt. 2020 om 21:09
schreef Marc Gemis <<a href="mailto:marc.gemis@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">marc.gemis@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">As we map what is on the ground, we do not
have to care about that, I would assume. Let someone else
fight with the people that place the signs.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">m</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op di 3 mrt. 2020 20:10
schreef Steven Clays <<a
href="mailto:steven.clays@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">steven.clays@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">To make it more complex, not every
signposted towpath in Flanders is legally a towpath.
Check <a
href="http://www.start2boat.be/vaaropleiding/downloads/reglementen/Bijzondere%20reglementen.pdf"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.start2boat.be/vaaropleiding/downloads/reglementen/Bijzondere%20reglementen.pdf</a></div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Op di 3 mrt. 2020 om
19:38 schreef Stijn Rombauts via Talk-be <<a
href="mailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">talk-be@openstreetmap.org</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr">Hi,</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">'Jaagpaden' are not always paved
roads. Often compacted, gravel, earthen, grassy,
... roads/tracks and then highway=track seems a
better choice. Sometimes the only thing that's
left is just a path. Then the tag
service=towpath is rather odd. I use
description=jaagpad.</div>
<div dir="ltr">And what about similar roads which
usually have the same access restrictions but
are called 'haven' or 'havengebied' instead of
'jaagpad'?</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Regards,</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">StijnRR<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="gmail-m_-4034970367925821060m_3556437970328604000gmail-m_-3205183025544704828ydp11c244cayahoo_quoted_3537368953">
<div style="font-family:"Helvetica
Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)">
<div> Op dinsdag 3 maart 2020 16:28:46 CET
schreef Pieter Vander Vennet <<a
href="mailto:pietervdvn@posteo.net"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pietervdvn@posteo.net</a>>:
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Hey Marc,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks for your response.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
IMHO all towpaths are indeed peculiar
service roads, thus<br clear="none">
'highway=service' + 'service=towpath'. The
wiki even mentions explicitly<br
clear="none">
that it should be a service road.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
The examples you sent are excellent examples
where the legal signposting<br clear="none">
didn't catch up with the historic usage.
These clearly used to be<br clear="none">
towpath but they didn't gain the legal
recognition of a 'jaagpad'.<br clear="none">
Personally, I would tag those with
'service=towpath' (reflecting the<br
clear="none">
historic usage) but not with 'towpath=yes',
but this is very subject to<br clear="none">
change. We might even consider `towpath=no`
(with a note clarifying this<br clear="none">
is legally _not_ a 'jaagpad') or
`legal:towpath=no` or something similar.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Another thought: if we are about using
'towpath=yes' to reflect the<br clear="none">
legal status, I'm doubting that there is no
better tag scheme for this.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Kind regards, Pieter<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 03.03.20 16:12, Marc Gemis wrote:<br
clear="none">
> I'm fine with explicitly mapping them.<br
clear="none">
> Isn't service=towpath strange on a way
that is not tagged as<br clear="none">
> highway=service? (but you know that I
think they should have been<br clear="none">
> mapped as highway=service in the first
place, but this is not the<br clear="none">
> case)<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> So it's meant for all those that are
explicitly signed as "Jaagpad"<br
clear="none">
> and not for any others? So this<br
clear="none">
> <a shape="rect"
href="https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3T0U_uBJxNXHfrgwdztQDQ"
rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/3T0U_uBJxNXHfrgwdztQDQ
</a>is not a<br clear="none">
> Jaagpad? (a bit further<br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect"
href="https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=51.05439739997222&lng=4.4334043&z=17&focus=photo&pKey=cmVJ5z_VXnZqwsdrEK0aHw"
rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=51.05439739997222&lng=4.4334043&z=17&focus=photo&pKey=cmVJ5z_VXnZqwsdrEK0aHw</a><br
clear="none">
> , but that still does not make it a
Jaadpad?)<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> m.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 2:14 PM Pieter
Vander Vennet<br clear="none">
> <<a shape="rect"
href="mailto:pietervdvn@posteo.net"
rel="nofollow noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pietervdvn@posteo.net</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
>> Hello everyone,<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Even though the legal restrictions
of 'Jaagpaden' (towpaths in proper English)
is already described in detail on the wiki,
it would still be useful to reflect the
special status explicitly, in our case to
give a comfort bonus in cycling route
planning but also for historical purposes.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> For context, a 'jaagpad', 'trekpad'
or towing path is a path that used to be
used to (literally) tow boats through the
canals, either with manpower or horsepower
and a rope attached to the boat - hence
there are never trees between a towpath.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> With the rise of cheap and powerful
combustion engines, this practice became
disused and towpaths became service roads
and cycleways.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> As stated, these often are
excellent and heavily preferred by cyclists.
Normally, they are wide, asphalted, there
are very few cars and especially: there is
the very nice scenery of the canal.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Therefore, I would propose to
introduce tagging in Belgium to tag
towpaths.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> There are two ways to achieve this:<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> - A towpath is typically a specific
type of service road, so we can add
`service=towpath`<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> - In the UK, the towpaths are
tagged with `towpath=yes`<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> Note that towpaths in Flanders are
mostly signposted with an official sign,
even though that this is a bit of a legal
remnant of a previous era. However, it makes
it very explicit and thus unambiguous to
map.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> But now, for the serious questions:<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> - what are your thoughts of mapping
them somehow? IMHO it is an added value and
I'm quite in favour of them.<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> - What is the best way of mapping
them? I'm a bit on the edge of the options
above: `service=towpath` is IMHO
semantically the most correct form, as it
indicates that it is a service road
originally built for towing. `towpath=yes`
reeks more of the legal status (i.e. having
a formal road sign indicating 'jaagpad').
The latter has the advantage of already
being in use in the UK with over 3500
instances according to taginfo.
service=towpath is not in use at the moment.<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> PS: fun etymological fact: the
English verb 'to tow' is derived from the
Dutch word for rope: 'touw'<br clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>> --<br clear="none">
>> Met vriendelijke groeten,<br
clear="none">
>> Pieter Vander Vennet<br
clear="none">
>><br clear="none">
>>
_______________________________________________<br
clear="none">
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clear="none">
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clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-- <br clear="none">
Met vriendelijke groeten,<br clear="none">
Pieter Vander Vennet<br clear="none">
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Met vriendelijke groeten,
Pieter Vander Vennet</pre>
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